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England players booed
...for taking the knee
#21
(03-06-2021, 04:44 PM)Bangle1 Wrote: Taking the knee has an image problem. While many players are doing it to promote respect and solidarity, taking the knee was also associated with the UK BLM (who I understand the US division has distanced itself from) manifesto being circulated online, that spoke to making the white man a slave and vengeance. Clearly some can't get past that, hence the boos.

The message is intended to be good, the method causes discourse. Perhaps they should try a different action or approach? While I have no doubt there will be card carrying racists among the people booing, it's assumption to label them all collectively as racists.


There is a very long history of discrediting protest movements against the establishment by staging repugnant acts undertaken by planted ‘actors’.  Political leaders have staged bombings, cried “communists have infiltrated the popular protests” then declared martial law.

It also happens that in any political movement, you get extremists who act violently.  You just don’t let them take over your cause.

And evidently, when the loons really have taken over your political party, you just do what the Republican leaders, the right-wing media, and anyone on the internet does.  You yell the bogeyman word:  ‘Antifa!’
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#22
(03-06-2021, 05:33 PM)jdcyl Wrote:
(03-06-2021, 04:44 PM)Bangle1 Wrote: Taking the knee has an image problem. While many players are doing it to promote respect and solidarity, taking the knee was also associated with the UK BLM (who I understand the US division has distanced itself from) manifesto being circulated online, that spoke to making the white man a slave and vengeance. Clearly some can't get past that, hence the boos.

The message is intended to be good, the method causes discourse. Perhaps they should try a different action or approach? While I have no doubt there will be card carrying racists among the people booing, it's assumption to label them all collectively as racists.


There is a very long history of discrediting protest movements against the establishment by staging repugnant acts undertaken by planted ‘actors’.  Political leaders have staged bombings, cried “communists have infiltrated the popular protests” then declared martial law.

It also happens that in any political movement, you get extremists who act violently.  You just don’t let them take over your cause.

And evidently, when the loons really have taken over your political party, you just do what the Republican leaders, the right-wing media, and anyone on the internet does.  You yell the bogeyman word:  ‘Antifa!’

OR alternatively, you accept that the current approach isn't as effective as you hoped and try a different business model. Ask blockbuster video about how successful it is to dig your heels in and not adapt.

I don't understand why you are so fixated on the UK doing what America does. Perhaps something else would have a greater impact here. I also don't understand your point regarding actors and infiltration, it isn't applicable to this particular scenario.

The message of progress and equality isn't what many are claiming to be the issue, simply the action of taking the knee.
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#23
You just said yourself “far-right political groups hijacked” taking the knee. I’m assuming the far-right isn’t actually in support of racial justice and equality. Their intent was to discredit, yes? That’s the same as what I said, that there is a long history of ‘actors’ who are really in opposition to a political cause, infiltrating and acting to discredit.
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#24
(03-06-2021, 06:06 PM)jdcyl Wrote: You just said yourself “far-right political groups hijacked” taking the knee.  I’m assuming the far-right isn’t actually in support of racial justice and equality.  Their intent was to discredit, yes?  That’s the same as what I said, that there is a long history of ‘actors’ who are really in opposition to a political cause, infiltrating and acting to discredit.

Not entirely true, not entirely wrong. The far right political group, who operated under the name 'BLM', was a black power group. They were initially the public face of the UK division of BLM until their manifesto spoke of enslaving the white man, among other things.

I'd imagine their intention was not to hijack the cause, but to elevate it. If you google Sasha Johnson's views and history with BLM, also their manifesto, you may get some idea (ignore the recent media regarding her being shot). The reality is, to some of the UK football fans who are booing, that is what they are booing and not equality, or so they say. As I said before, there will be some racists, but many are simply booing the knee which relates to Sasha Johnson and her friends.

I personally don't care if people take the knee or not, but it is the intended audience who do.

[Image: 5df4d7b049dcaaddf94dc7d170af1a7ae22f91e4...e8e8_1.jpg]
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#25
Y
(03-06-2021, 04:58 PM)jdcyl Wrote: So, the political demonstrations around the globe for racial justice, and the particular form it takes in sports of ‘taking the knee’, are isolated within each country, huh?  They’re not all tied together as a global movement, it’s just coincidence that they’re happening in different countries at this time in history?

No but we are talking about English football are we not ?
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#26
@Bangle - Ah, that’s what you’re referring to. As I said, “It also happens that in any political movement, you get extremists who act violently. You just don’t let them take over your cause.”

I’m not fixated on the UK doing what America does. Evidently, though, UK athletes feel a strong bond AS ATHLETES with the American athletes, and that they choose to use the platform they have in the same way as the Americans. I understand why. It’s not like racism is a non-issue in UK sports. (The horrific slurs and chants hurled against minority players from the stands?) It’s not in the least bit difficult to understand why the whole team makes very visible that they are as one in solidarity against racism and injustice.
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#27
I don't for one second believe that those people who booed the England players last night have researched the alleged political groups who are claimed to have infiltrated the BLM movement. On the one hand I hear about Marxists and on the other it's meant to be far right activists - all of it is utter bollocks.

If you think Marcus Rashford, Jesse Lingard, Trent Alexander-Arnold, Tyrone Mings, Jude Bellingham, or Bukayo Saka took the knee last night to make a political point - either left or right wing - you're an idiot. It's about racism. If you have a problem with that, you need to take a look at yourself.
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#28
Sorry but I seem to remember romeolover telling a member earlier that their opinion isn’t absolute (or some words like that) so you’ve labelled everryone racist without actually knowing them.
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#29
(03-06-2021, 06:56 PM)RyCamp88 Wrote: Y
(03-06-2021, 04:58 PM)jdcyl Wrote: So, the political demonstrations around the globe for racial justice, and the particular form it takes in sports of ‘taking the knee’, are isolated within each country, huh?  They’re not all tied together as a global movement, it’s just coincidence that they’re happening in different countries at this time in history?

No but we are talking about English football are we not ?

This is such weak sauce.

I remember very well from my days in uni, I watched a lot of films and listened to a lot of punk, reggae, etc. all produced in response to the Brixton riots.  It did not surprise me one bit that immediately after Black Lives Matter reignited in the US last year, black communities in the UK took to the streets, too, and that they were citing their own experiences of discrimination from police - not just from decades ago but also their present day.  

I also remember from those years the football hooliganism, the sheer vile racist slurs UK fans poured onto black players. 

So, what are you saying, TeamJacob?   Are you trying to claim BLM issues in the US and UK are separate and totally different?  That in English football, racism is a non-issue?  That it’s ridiculous that a team (of multiethnic players together) in the UK would feel they will act in common with US fellow athletes in response against racism?
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#30
(03-06-2021, 07:35 PM)jdcyl Wrote:
(03-06-2021, 06:56 PM)RyCamp88 Wrote: Y
(03-06-2021, 04:58 PM)jdcyl Wrote: So, the political demonstrations around the globe for racial justice, and the particular form it takes in sports of ‘taking the knee’, are isolated within each country, huh?  They’re not all tied together as a global movement, it’s just coincidence that they’re happening in different countries at this time in history?

No but we are talking about English football are we not ?

This is such weak sauce.

I remember very well from my days in uni, I watched a lot of films and listened to a lot of punk, reggae, etc. all produced in response to the Brixton riots.  It did not surprise me one bit that immediately after Black Lives Matter reignited in the US last year, black communities in the UK took to the streets, too, and that they were citing their own experiences of discrimination from police - not just from decades ago but also their present day.  

I also remember from those years the football hooliganism, the sheer vile racist slurs UK fans poured onto black players. 

So, what are you saying, TeamJacob?   Are you trying to claim BLM issues in the US and UK are separate and totally different?  That in English football, racism is a non-issue?  That it’s ridiculous that a team (of multiethnic players together) in the UK would feel they will act in common with US fellow athletes in response against racism?

How can I say anything when your busy putting words in my mouth.
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#31
(03-06-2021, 07:01 PM)Ollie2UK Wrote: I don't for one second believe that those people who booed the England players last night have researched the alleged political groups who are claimed to have infiltrated the BLM movement. On the one hand I hear about Marxists and on the other it's meant to be far right activists - all of it is utter bollocks.

If you think Marcus Rashford, Jesse Lingard, Trent Alexander-Arnold, Tyrone Mings, Jude Bellingham, or Bukayo Saka took the knee last night to make a political point - either left or right wing - you're an idiot. It's about racism. If you have a problem with that, you need to take a look at yourself.

The so-called far right BLM activists and the Marxists are one in the same, it all stems from the same manifesto and then the latter launch as a political party, or at least that's my perception of how the fans are thinking.

We have to remember, we aren't talking about enlightened academics. We're talking about football fans and every time they travel abroad, we see a proportion of them for the knuckle-draggers they are. That said, those are the people we are talking about here and the ones who are being targeted by the action preceding the match. I'd be surprised if many of them even know who Karl Marx is, let alone understand or research what Marxism is.

I agree with you, taking the knee is not a political point. Nor is taking the knee intended to be a political point. As I said a few posts ago, that doesn't change the fact that it has an identity problem. A number of fans, claim that they believe it is political in nature and relate it to that, and that is why they boo.

Didn't Millwall have a problem with booing the knee? I don't remember the specifics, but they abandoned taking the knee after a few matches. I THINK they tried something else and the booing stopped.
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#32
I can't agree that Southgate spoke well on the subject. His exact words were "some people don't understand the message" but that exact sentence applies to HIM, not the fans.

People don't want the kneeling anymore. I think it was a good idea last Summer, back when football had restarted and there were no fans present but a very big television audience. But it's been a YEAR now, it's a tired gesture, move on. It shouldn't become mainstay part of football. Even for Black people and people who strongly support BLM; many of them don't want it to continue because it will become an empty gesture which actually replaces proper work on the subject of racial quality.

Not everyone is in favour of BLM; some people think it has done more harm than good. It's only when those people are heard, instead of dismissed as racists, that we can have constructive dialogue and solutions can be found.
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#33
@TeamJacob - Why don’t you try?

I was particularly impressed with your knowledge of Vikings wearing dreadlocks: your lifetime of learning from books and museums. “Some of us don’t need television for education,” you loftily pronounced. Then when asked to cite a source, your immediate appeal was to a (fantasy) tv show “which is on the history channel, so there for I’m sure they had researchers.”
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#34
(03-06-2021, 08:06 PM)jdcyl Wrote: @TeamJacob - Why don’t you try?

I was particularly impressed with your knowledge of Vikings wearing dreadlocks: your lifetime of learning from books and museums.  “Some of us don’t  need television for education,” you loftily pronounced.  Then when asked to cite a source, your immediate  appeal was to a (fantasy) tv show “which is on the history channel, so there for I’m sure they had researchers.”

Noticed you never replied to that comment. But do stay on topic, How many of these footballers spend thier spare time with anti racism organisations ? How many posted about it before it became mainstream, football is a tradition in the uk and people don’t like tradition being messed with, it’s not about why the knee is taken, its about it’s now become a part of the game and folk are bored off it now. It’s a novelty that’s lost meaning, like the clap for the nhs.
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#35
(03-06-2021, 07:59 PM)Mikey32 Wrote: Not everyone is in favour of BLM; some people think it has done more harm than good. It's only when those people are heard, instead of dismissed as racists, that we can have constructive dialogue and solutions can be found.

Couldn't agree more. One of my biggest bugbears if the intolerance of the tolerant. Those who profess to be striving for equality, yet refuse to have meaningful and constructive dialogue. Sometimes someone has to just swallow their pride and be open to hearing alternative ideas and find some middle ground. Less 'them and us' mentality.

Although, I also think you have to appreciate that some very well might be racists and aren't willing to communicate.
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#36
(03-06-2021, 08:24 PM)Bangle1 Wrote:
(03-06-2021, 07:59 PM)Mikey32 Wrote: Not everyone is in favour of BLM; some people think it has done more harm than good. It's only when those people are heard, instead of dismissed as racists, that we can have constructive dialogue and solutions can be found.

Couldn't agree more. One of my biggest bugbears if the intolerance of the tolerant. Those who profess to be striving for equality, yet refuse to have meaningful and constructive dialogue. Sometimes someone has to just swallow their pride and be open to hearing alternative ideas and find some middle ground. Less 'them and us' mentality.

Although, I also think you have to appreciate that some very well might be racists and aren't willing to communicate.
Yeah, of-course, there will be a few actual racists. I'm not in favour of the kneeling and I don't think BLM has been good (specifically in the UK), but I certainly wouldn't have booed, had I been there.
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#37
Progressives are told only too frequently words something like this: “We need support from bigots, so we have to not mention bigotry, and pretend it’s not an issue.” The ‘pragmatism’ is very effective at perpetuating the bigotry.
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#38
(03-06-2021, 07:20 PM)RyCamp88 Wrote: Sorry but I seem to remember romeolover telling a member earlier that their opinion isn’t absolute (or some words like that) so you’ve labelled everryone racist without actually knowing them.

I'm sure romeolover will tell me if I've overstepped the mark. Approve

This thread has really surprised me. I'm struggling to get my head around people justifying booing black football players for protesting against racism.

I mean, that's what it comes to, no matter how you try to dress it up.
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#39
(03-06-2021, 09:02 PM)Ollie2UK Wrote:
(03-06-2021, 07:20 PM)RyCamp88 Wrote: Sorry but I seem to remember romeolover telling a member earlier that their opinion isn’t absolute (or some words like that) so you’ve labelled everryone racist without actually knowing them.

I'm sure romeolover will tell me if I've overstepped the mark. Approve

This thread has really surprised me. I'm struggling to get my head around people justifying booing black football players for protesting against racism.

I mean, that's what it comes to, no matter how you try to dress it up.

Ollie, you say that you are surprised by the reaction to the post. I presumed that you made the post because you wanted to generate some debate. Did you just want everyone to agree with you? I don't think they were booing the players because they were black any more than they were cheering the goal because Saka is black.  I reiterate that I wouldn't have booed as I don't think it's the correct response; but you cannot just dismiss people as racist as that adds to the problem.
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#40
(03-06-2021, 09:02 PM)Ollie2UK Wrote:
(03-06-2021, 07:20 PM)RyCamp88 Wrote: Sorry but I seem to remember romeolover telling a member earlier that their opinion isn’t absolute (or some words like that) so you’ve labelled everryone racist without actually knowing them.

I'm sure romeolover will tell me if I've overstepped the mark. Approve

This thread has really surprised me. I'm struggling to get my head around people justifying booing black football players for protesting against racism.

I mean, that's what it comes to, no matter how you try to dress it up.

You said English players, now it’s black players. Nobody cares what colour you are, play football and use your spare time to raise awareness.
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