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Poll: Would you buy an electric car??
You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Yes
52.63%
10 52.63%
No
47.37%
9 47.37%
Total 19 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

Electric car
yes, or no??
#41
(25-05-2021, 11:27 AM)Kev Wrote:
Quote:In the UK the government can compulsory purchase land for projects including public transport (as they have done for HS2 and Crossrail). Not sure if this is possible in the US but, of course, depends on political will which I don’t think is there (at least not to this extent)?

We do have something like that here. It's called "eminent domain".

The difference is that you can fight eminent domain.  I don't think you can do that in the UK.  In the US, the government has to use the land they take for public use and has to give "just compensation" to the landowner.  If they don't value your property and the harm taking it will cause to the rest of the land, it can be challenged that way.  They have to have a valid reason for condemnation of your property and be an approved or allowed governmental group/agency to be able to have such authority as well.  If a local, state, or federal statute doesn't include a specific plan that is wanted for your land, that is one of the reasons you can fight it in court.  The government level in question also had to get the authority/authorization for enacting it properly.  Property isn't always condemned to be taken either.  If you can defend in court that your land is not necessary for the project/use that it is being sought for, you can also defeat eminent domain.
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#42
Quote:
(25-05-2021, 06:40 AM)Kev Wrote: Are hybrid cars still not an option?

(25-05-2021, 08:52 PM)jumbler Wrote: But how are people without their own garages supposed to be able to charge at home??

For terraced streets (and maybe blocks of flats), it ain’t gonna work. Confused

Even if you convert streetlights, they might only be on one side of the street.

Maybe we’ll need charging lay-bys or something similar.

Home charging is definitely a blocker to the take up of electric cars or plug in hybrids (by the way there are other type of hybrids that don’t need to be plugged in which would get around the charging issue; but the sale of hybrids are time limited like petrol/diesel cars are).

Looking at a few of the charging companies there is no clear solution yet but community charging areas (i.e. the lay-bys you mention) are one idea (Audi have announced they are going to be trialling these in Germany; Tesla have a wide range of charging points although these are generally at service areas).

Adding charge points to residential roads is also likely but will take a long time. My council allows you to request one but makes it clear that they allocate them on demand. So why would they allocate one to your street if you don’t yet have an electric car, and why would get an electric car if there isn’t a charge point (chicken and egg anyone?)?.

Availability of electric cars is just at the tipping point now whereby every manufacturer is launching several in quick succession but without the charging infrastructure their success be limited.
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#43
Just registered to give my views as an EV owner and long-time lurker on these forums - normally View  Big Grin

Firstly, if you've not driven an EV before it's well worth having a test drive. It will certainly help inform opinions.

I'm not in favour of plug in hybrids as they're inflexible. Their range on electric only is very limited and they still have all the downsides of a normal petrol/diesel car - a complex engine that requires regular servicing, expensive to fuel, and you're carrying around both an internal combustion engine and electric battery/motors. With an EV having an easy 200+ mile range available I don't see the point now. Transport and Environment have done good analysis showing that plugin hybrids emit the same if not more CO2 than a standard internal combustion car.

I am based in London and have to park on the street, sometimes a distance away from my home. So I can't charge at home, unlike the 70% of UK homes (not houses) that have offstreet parking available. In my case I use BP Pulse membership and charge at public charge points nearby. I'm on an unlimited £7.85 pcm membership and don't normally have an issue getting onto a charger for a few hours every week/every other week. This setup works fine for me, YMMV.

The thing with chargers are - people don't know where they are because they're not as visible as a petrol station! There are now 15,500 charge points in the UK - and rising every month - against 8,300 petrol stations. They're not seen because they blend in with the car park, supermarket, hotel, onstreet parking or street light. Councils here in London and other cities are doing inexpensive conversions of street lights to incorporate charging. It won't work everywhere but having a charger at pretty much anywhere you can park is definitely the goal. Using Zap Map or Plugshare really gives you a view of the charge points available around an area.

Running costs in an EV are far lower, though the initial purchase price is still high. There's negligible running costs, servicing isn't required (unlike an internal combustion engine requiring oil change, fan belt change, timing belt, gearbox etc etc) and there's no Vehicle Excise Duty (Road Tax). For London it's fully ULEZ compliant and with a 100% discount on the Congestion Charge until October 2025. The used market is getting far better now and contrary to some opinions the batteries do last more than 2 years! A warranty on a Tesla, a Jaguary iPace, Kia, Hyundai etc are all covering the car to still have minimum 80+% charge after 8 years or 100,000 miles or so.

If you're doing a lot of miles then an EV can really make sense. Pre-Covid a friend was commuting to work in his BMW and spending £160 a week on petrol (!!). We worked out that if he changed to an EV and charged at home using a cheap overnight tariff like Octopus Go he'd be paying £16-18 a week in electricity instead. That saving, together with negligible servicing costs, no road tax etc went a long way to making the car cost neutral compared to his existing car. Plus a far more comfortable car for driving long distances. Then Covid hit and he's no longer commuting......

There's so many tiring tropes that get wheeled out about EV's. They're not slow, they don't need the batteries replacing every few years, the electricity supply in the UK rarely uses any coal anymore, the electricity grid gets cleaner every single year, the National Grid sees no problem in either generating or distributing the power to charge them, and the materials they're made from is not dug up by child slaves in Africa. The fossil fuel industry is desperate to maintain the status quo as the money they stand to lose are enormous - they want to keep things as they are, with associated huge environnmental cost. Not everyone needs a car and certainly if you don't need a car then the best environmental position is to avoid having a car. But if you need one then an EV is an excellent choice. I would recommend anyone to do the research, assess for themselves and to seek informed help and advice.
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#44
(16-06-2021, 10:05 AM)davidd27 Wrote: Just registered to give my views as an EV owner and long-time lurker on these forums - normally View  Big Grin
Welcome  Approve Great, and important, to have the views of an owner!

(16-06-2021, 10:05 AM)davidd27 Wrote: Firstly, if you've not driven an EV before it's well worth having a test drive. It will certainly help inform opinions.
I agree as in my experience they are so much different to what you expect. Certainly made me excited to get an EV in the future.

(16-06-2021, 10:05 AM)davidd27 Wrote: I'm not in favour of plug in hybrids as they're inflexible. Their range on electric only is very limited and they still have all the downsides of a normal petrol/diesel car - a complex engine that requires regular servicing, expensive to fuel, and you're carrying around both an internal combustion engine and electric battery/motors.
For some people hybrids are a good move away from solely petrol/diesel cars but are better for users who only do relatively short, low speed journeys. Unfortunately because of the low company car tax a lot of such drivers have moved into them and found they don’t really get the benefit they expected (for the reasons you’ve said).

(16-06-2021, 10:05 AM)davidd27 Wrote: The thing with chargers are - people don't know where they are because they're not as visible as a petrol station! There are now 15,500 charge points in the UK - and rising every month - against 8,300 petrol stations.
Not sure this is an apples with apples comparison. 8.3k petrol stations will have a number of pumps available and it “only takes 5 minutes” to fill up. To charge the same number of vehicles is going to take way more than 15.5k charge points to offset the additional time required. It will come in due course, along with quicker charge times,  but it remains a blocker for many at present.

(16-06-2021, 10:05 AM)davidd27 Wrote: Running costs in an EV are far lower, though the initial purchase price is still high. There's negligible running costs, servicing isn't required (unlike an internal combustion engine requiring oil change, fan belt change, timing belt, gearbox etc etc) and there's no Vehicle Excise Duty (Road Tax).
Servicing is required albeit it’s not as complex. Tyre wear is likely to be higher as EV’s weigh more so people will have to pay more over the life of the vehicle.

And there’s no VED right now (to encourage uptake of EV’s) but it’s bound to come in at some point along with tax on the electricity used to charge cars. The government will need to plug the tax gap somehow so logic states they’ll go this route once a significant number if people have switched to an EV.
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#45
How long does it take to "fill up the tank" of an EV vs. 5 minutes for a petrol/diesel car?
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#46
The Ford F-150 has been the best-selling vehicle in the USA for decades.  (It’s a pickup truck, of course.)  The base price for the all-electric version is now within a few hundred dollars of the similarly configured gas/ diesel model.

But what’s more intriguing about this year’s model are the additional options for larger battery packs plus a bidirectional charger.  The vehicle plugs in to charge as normal, but then,  should there be a power outage the truck’s batteries could power the average home for three days.  It’s not just a gimmick, its real significance is that eventually everyone’s electric vehicles together can function as battery storage for the power grid.  Generated green energy requires massive storage capacity, so that the grid can draw on batteries when the wind isn’t blowing, etc.  Vehicles are normally in use for only a few hours a day, but otherwise they’re parked.  Collectively they can store energy from the grid when it’s being generated, and then feed power back to the grid when required.
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#47
(16-06-2021, 08:41 PM)Parsifal Wrote: How long does it take to "fill up the tank" of an EV vs. 5 minutes for a petrol/diesel car?

Depends on what power the charger is but a 22kW charger typically found in public locations fully charges in 5-8h. But it’s highly unlikely people would charge like this and more likely to top up as though along. For longer journeys, as an example, you might stop to charge when there is 20% of the battery left - to top up to 80% can be around 20 minutes using a very fast 150kW charger similar to Tesla.
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#48
Unfortunately, in a nation like the US, it will still probably be ages and ages before the vast majority of the population can own an electric vehicle. By the time they can, most of those owned will be used just as a lot of lower income people can never own a new gasoline powered car now. Charging stations are going to be the first hurdle because demand won't force them to be built until the anti-environment crowd is somehow gone or the vehicles are SO cheap that buying them is an afterthought, outside of cities and larger suburbs of cities. Rural people like me will still be stuck with everyone driving ICE vehicles until gasoline no longer exists or there is a cheaper alternative to gasoline. Too many Americans, especially Southerners, just aren't going to buy anything "environmentally friendly" for cost reasons and thinking the whole thing is crap because they can ignore the problems with the environment.
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#49
I'm looking for a new car at the moment.

Although my 'saving the planet'ness will be limited to switching from Diesel to Petrol.

Electric just isn't practical for me now. Although I expect this will be my last fossil fuel car.
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#50
Ladsnet, I'm the same. Just swapped my car, and this will probably be the last petrol vehicle I buy. I'm lucky in that I could charge an EV at home, and we are shortly to have a charging point at work. But unfortunately I just couldn't make the finances work for me, so ended up going for a 1.2 engine, the smallest I could realistically get away with while having a big enough car for my transport needs. Next time I change, it will be to an EV definitely, as I believe the prices will have come down significantly.
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#51
In a few years charging technology will have reached the point where you can get a full charge in a matter of minutes

This will allow petrol stations to convert to charging stations. You can just pull up.. plug in.. look round the shop for 5 mins / grab a coffee... pay... you're done. Although you'll still be able to plug in at home... those who can't will be fine.

THATs when it will really take off.
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#52
(20-06-2021, 10:27 AM)ladsnet Wrote: In a few years charging technology will have reached the point where you can get a full charge in a matter of minutes

Not to rain on your parade, but for the last few years that's what they've been saying for mobile phones. Hasn't happened yet. There are a few competing rapid charge standards but the fastest one degrades the battery, reducing its lifespan.

Yes, car batteries are different but not that different.
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#53
(16-06-2021, 05:54 PM)deegee178 Wrote:
(16-06-2021, 10:05 AM)davidd27 Wrote: The thing with chargers are - people don't know where they are because they're not as visible as a petrol station! There are now 15,500 charge points in the UK - and rising every month - against 8,300 petrol stations.
Not sure this is an apples with apples comparison. 8.3k petrol stations will have a number of pumps available and it “only takes 5 minutes” to fill up. To charge the same number of vehicles is going to take way more than 15.5k charge points to offset the additional time required. It will come in due course, along with quicker charge times,  but it remains a blocker for many at present.

(16-06-2021, 10:05 AM)davidd27 Wrote: Running costs in an EV are far lower, though the initial purchase price is still high. There's negligible running costs, servicing isn't required (unlike an internal combustion engine requiring oil change, fan belt change, timing belt, gearbox etc etc) and there's no Vehicle Excise Duty (Road Tax).
Servicing is required albeit it’s not as complex. Tyre wear is likely to be higher as EV’s weigh more so people will have to pay more over the life of the vehicle.

And there’s no VED right now (to encourage uptake of EV’s) but it’s bound to come in at some point along with tax on the electricity used to charge cars. The government will need to plug the tax gap somehow so logic states they’ll go this route once a significant number if people have switched to an EV.

So just on the chargers front - and this is a debate I've had with some petrol/diesel users online who have said I'm "stupid". So there's 15,500 charge locations in the UK (sorry my bad for confusing by saying 'points') and at those locations there are usually a number of 'devices' (analagous to pumps) and connectors (like a hose  Big Grin) if you look at the stats overall then from Zap Map Stats:

15,564 "locations"
24,419 devices
42,019 connectors

Unlike a petrol pump, typically 2 cars can use one device at once by using separate connectors. So one might be on a 7kW connector and another parked alongside on a 50kW connector. Apologies again I wasn't clear on terminology.

For taxation the talk of 'road pricing' to replace VED/fuel tax has been discussed far in advance of electric cars. As per other earlier posters, I think the low cost (for now) of electric car 'fuel' is essential to help drive uptake, reduce our use of fossil fuels and transition to lower CO2 emissions. I expect road pricing to catch up but there's still 8+ years until the ban on new petrol/diesel only vehicles and petrol/diesel will still be majority of vehicles on the road until the mid-late 2030's so I doubt there's any great chasm in tax receipts in the short term.
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#54
(20-06-2021, 10:44 AM)Tiuri Wrote:
(20-06-2021, 10:27 AM)ladsnet Wrote: In a few years charging technology will have reached the point where you can get a full charge in a matter of minutes

Not to rain on your parade, but for the last few years that's what they've been saying for mobile phones. Hasn't happened yet. There are a few competing rapid charge standards but the fastest one degrades the battery, reducing its lifespan.

Yes, car batteries are different but not that different.

Mobiles have come a long way though..

10, even 5, years ago you'd need to plug your phone in overnight for a full charge. Mine can now do it in 45 minutes.
I think we can confidently say in another 10 years that'll be down to 5 or even 1 as 'normal'
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#55
(20-06-2021, 11:44 AM)davidd27 Wrote: So just on the chargers front - and this is a debate I've had with some petrol/diesel users online who have said I'm "stupid". So there's 15,500 charge locations in the UK (sorry my bad for confusing by saying 'points') and at those locations there are usually a number of 'devices' (analagous to pumps) and connectors (like a hose  Big Grin) if you look at the stats overall then from Zap Map Stats:

15,564 "locations"
24,419 devices
42,019 connectors

Unlike a petrol pump, typically 2 cars can use one device at once by using separate connectors. So one might be on a 7kW connector and another parked alongside on a 50kW connector. Apologies again I wasn't clear on terminology.

For taxation the talk of 'road pricing' to replace VED/fuel tax has been discussed far in advance of electric cars. As per other earlier posters, I think the low cost (for now) of electric car 'fuel' is essential to help drive uptake, reduce our use of fossil fuels and transition to lower CO2 emissions. I expect road pricing to catch up but there's still 8+ years until the ban on new petrol/diesel only vehicles and petrol/diesel will still be majority of vehicles on the road until the mid-late 2030's so I doubt there's any great chasm in tax receipts in the short term.

Thanks for the clarity on charge points/locations - good to know!

I’d forgotten about the potential switch to road pricing instead of tax. That could work but politics will get in the way as will controversial for whichever government chooses to introduce it. But it will be resolved way quicker than 8+ years as rumours abound that the VW Group will switch completely to EV’s within 5 years and given that 20-25% of new cars sold come from that company it will force the government to act one way or another.


(20-06-2021, 12:59 PM)ladsnet Wrote: 10, even 5, years ago you'd need to plug your phone in overnight for a full charge. Mine can now do it in 45 minutes.
I think we can confidently say in another 10 years that'll be down to 5 or even 1 as 'normal'

5 minutes will come soon according to this video (good video to watch for those who are sceptical about EV’s):

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#56
I looked at EV's and we're way behind the US, who have superchargers for Tesla with very widespread coverage, and Electrify America.  All these charging points give off at least 100w+ of charge.

Compared to the UK, very few chargers, my local one at Tesco gives you 8w of charging - Just not practical at the moment.  So I went with a 1.8 MSport BMW.
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#57
(21-06-2021, 08:18 AM)romeolover Wrote: I looked at EV's and we're way behind the US, who have superchargers for Tesla with very widespread coverage, and Electrify America.  All these charging points give off at least 100w+ of charge.

Compared to the UK, very few chargers, my local one at Tesco gives you 8w of charging - Just not practical at the moment.  So I went with a 1.8 MSport BMW.

Totally fair, I don't think EV's are for everyone yet. And the technology will continue to improve. I don't think there's a great need to extend range further TBH, but having more charge options just makes it more and more 'liveable'. 

Zap Map has great mapping of charge locations and ability to filter by kW speed (5, 7, 11, 22, 50, 100, 150, 250, 350 etc) . I did the research of charging options around my home and work locations before I purchased my car. The Tesla Superchargers in UK are mostly 120-150kW but the new V3 ones are 250kW so will do 20-80% in 15-20 minutes max. For me I do just use public 7kW chargers for 5-6 hours each week as they're included in my monthly subscription. Next week when I'm travelling around Scotland I'll be using fast chargers to fit easily around natural breaks etc.

A really good tool for checking viability of longer trips and where to charge enroute is 'A Better Route Planner' which is a website and app. Just enter the route, configure the specific manufacturer and model and it maps out the trip to include charge points (if required). It uses real world data from vehicles to give accurate estimates based on weather, speed etc.
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