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Puberty blockers to be blocked for under-16s
#61
But some do know.

And they're not just given the pills. They go through a lot of consultations and psych testing to get to the stage where they get medication.
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#62
Yeah, I'm 50/50 as well & I'm not really being swayed by any of the arguments on this thread,

(03-12-2020, 11:13 PM)Daigorō Wrote: It's because of these kids that went through Precocious puberty and had taken the drugs that we know what we know about the mid term side effects.  So no, Doctors shouldn't still be prescribing them.

Hmm...I don't want to labour the point, but kids who go through precocious puberty can end up with long-term physical and mental problems. I can't help wondering whether all those outraged about puberty blockers would be equally outraged if they were only being used to treat early puberty cases,

Without accusing anyone of transphobia - particularly on this thread - I suspect not,
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#63
And my point has been and remains: it should be allowed as an option and observed at every stage. Not just here's some pills best of luck.
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#64
(04-12-2020, 12:30 AM)Ollie2UK Wrote: I can't help wondering whether all those outraged about puberty blockers would be equally outraged if they were only being used to treat early puberty cases,

Again, long term studies are needed.  It's not just a morality issue.

To be fair I have to add that I have an aversion to medications in general.  Of course, many are life saving and they all (almost all?) have side effects.  Cancer drugs have terrible side effects, but the save your life.

Hell, I don't even take aspirin.  (I don't get headaches anyway, except for the frustrating kind, not the painful kind)  About a year ago I tossed out a bottle of Tylenol that had an expiration date of some ten years prior. LOL  I'm lucky though.  No issues.  I did take an antibiotic when I had a UTI, and years ago when I had gonorrhea. Bag Head  And I may or may not take the Covid vaccine.  50/50  The lesser of two evils.  Shit!  Deaths are spiking higher than ever now.  I want to know if it's going to shrink my cock.

But having a trans candidate wait until 16 (the consensus age) is not a life and death issue.  And again, don't rule out the possibility that once the child becomes and adult he/she may sue the parents if the drug was administered.  (Here in America we sue)
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#65
So.. forget what age you are.

You KNOW that you are the wrong physical gender. You're trapped in the wrong body. The depression and anguish is massive. Every day is a nightmare.

There is hope. There is an answer.

But you have to wait 4 years to do anything about it. Because other people, who do not know you, think you're not ready yet. Because they think they know best.
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#66
To make a permanent life changing decision, e.g. the puberty blocker or even the surgery, the law says that you have to understand your decision.  It also says that you won't understand your decision until you're 16 (or so).  A parent or legal guardian can make that decision for you.

If I were that parent (of course it's impossible to know what you would do unless you're in that situation) I would want to know about long term effects and (this being America) will the kid sue me some day if I go along with it and it turns out badly.
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#67
(04-12-2020, 12:06 AM)Parsifal Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 11:13 PM)Daigorō Wrote: You've sworn at me, insulted me, misrepresented what I've said, lied about what I've said and accused me of things that are demonstrably (in this thread) untrue.

Oh he does that.  Don't take it personally.  He does that to me too.
He has even "quoted" me as saying something that I neither said nor believe. LOL
Even when he says flattering things about me he sometimes embellishes it a bit.  It's ok.
Look, he has imagination, a virtuous quality.


Hmmmmm... your patience for out and out buffoonery and a willingness to quickly forgive others maliciousness are virtuous qualities.  Not so sure that I have the ability to extend that same courtesy to lying bad faith actors.

(04-12-2020, 12:13 AM)ladsnet Wrote:
Quote:They can and it's an entirely different pill with an entirely different set of side effects.
That wasn't the argument. The argument (not with you at this point) was that kids cannot get medication without their parents consent.. when clearly, in some cases they can.

Ah, OK, well yes. And on a case by case basis (the medication and the implications of taking said medication) that should be the case. With medication that causes little to no ill side effects in 99.9% of those who take it and those ill side effects do not cause permanent and irreparable damage to that persons body or psyche then it should be made readily available.  

(04-12-2020, 12:29 AM)ladsnet Wrote: But some do know.

And they're not just given the pills. They go through a lot of consultations and psych testing to get to the stage where they get medication.

Of course some kids do know. The same way that some kids know that they're homosexual. But there are also a big enough number of kids who ARE going through a phase. From the ages of 13 - 18 (high school) I had sexual relations with 7 boys in my school. All on multiple occasions. Only two of us actually turned out to be gay. The others were going through a phase or experimenting.  That's what being a teenager is about.

The problem, as we discovered from the court documents, is that they are not going through a lot of consultations and psych testing.  They are rushed through.  It's one of the reasons why the judgment was passed to severely restrict the use of the drugs.

(04-12-2020, 12:30 AM)Ollie2UK Wrote: Yeah, I'm 50/50 as well & I'm not really being swayed by any of the arguments on this thread,

(03-12-2020, 11:13 PM)Daigorō Wrote: It's because of these kids that went through Precocious puberty and had taken the drugs that we know what we know about the mid term side effects.  So no, Doctors shouldn't still be prescribing them.

Hmm...I don't want to labour the point, but kids who go through precocious puberty can end up with long-term physical and mental problems. I can't help wondering whether all those outraged about puberty blockers would be equally outraged if they were only being used to treat early puberty cases,

Without accusing anyone of transphobia - particularly on this thread - I suspect not,

If someone knew that kids were being unnecessarily medicalised for ANY reason and they weren't outraged then they're a bit of crappy person (to put it mildly).

And I know that you're not saying it but disagreeing with a trans person is not transphobia. People welcoming clarity about the legality of children consenting to treatment is not transphobia just because some trans people disagree. If people say EVERYTHING is transphobia how will anyone spot when it really IS transphobia?
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#68
(04-12-2020, 01:20 AM)Parsifal Wrote: To make a permanent life changing decision, e.g. the puberty blocker or even the surgery, the law says that you have to understand your decision.  It also says that you won't understand your decision until you're 16 (or so).  A parent or legal guardian can make that decision for you.

If I were that parent (of course it's impossible to know what you would do unless you're in that situation) I would want to know about long term effects and (this being America) will the kid sue me some day if I go along with it and it turns out badly.
This is why I think these kids have either got two very supportive parents, or one parent is keeping the other in the dark.

Even if they have good reasons, like a failed relationship, denying the other parent their say is breaking the law.
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#69
(04-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Daigorō Wrote:
(04-12-2020, 12:06 AM)Parsifal Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 11:13 PM)Daigorō Wrote: You've sworn at me, insulted me, misrepresented what I've said, lied about what I've said and accused me of things that are demonstrably (in this thread) untrue.

Oh he does that.  Don't take it personally.  He does that to me too.
He has even "quoted" me as saying something that I neither said nor believe. LOL
Even when he says flattering things about me he sometimes embellishes it a bit.  It's ok. Smile
Look, he has imagination, a virtuous quality.


Hmmmmm... your temperate patience for out and out buffoonery and a willingness to quickly forgive others maliciousness are a virtuous qualities.  Not so sure that I have the ability to extend that same courtesy to bad faith actors.

Oh, Heinrich and I have known each other (here on fmf) for years.
We actually love each other. Heart
But every once in a while a good clash cleans out the tensions. Hugs
At the moment I don't know which of us is winning.

(04-12-2020, 01:25 AM)Daigorō Wrote: Of course some kids do know. The same way that some kids know that they're homosexual. But there are also a big enough number of kids who ARE going through a phase. From the ages of 13 - 18 (high school) I had sexual relations with 7 boys in my school. All on multiple occasions. Only two of us actually turned out to be gay. The others were going through a phase or experimenting.  That's what being a teenager is about.

I missed out on all that fun. Sad
First time I had sex was a month before my 21st birthday, with a woman.  It was great! KatiePrice
First time with a guy I was 26 (with lots of women between 21 and 26).
I feel so deprived and distraught. Upset
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#70
It’s well known straight lads don’t mind who sucks their cock. As long as you’re discreet about it. Wink
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#71
Quote:I don't know. As I've indicated before, from what I've been reading the drug hasn't been around long enough (and probably not tested according to standard) to know what its long-term effects are.

you keep trotting out variations of this line and it's just plain not true. They've been a widely used drug in the treatment of gender dysmorphia for more than 22 years (having prior to that gone through regulatory and safety process's) which makes them, in "drugs" terms actually quite an old and well established drug. The covid treatments will have had just weeks of testing before being granted, just about every HIV treatment is only a few years old, most cancer treatments are only a few years old. The claim that this is a new drug or treatment process is completely and totally not true, nor by definition is the suggestion we don't have a clue as to the long term impacts.

A cursory search show a considerable number of papers about use of puberty suppressors published in all the big legitimate review forums - Nature, the BMJ, The Lancet, Oxford university, Paediatrics, plus a host of government and health service publishing forums.

If you don't agree with this course of treatment at least have the balls to say it's because YOU don't like it or are uncomfortable about it; stop claiming this is some modern fringe crazy untested experiment with no oversight or scientific data behind it because that is untrue.
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#72
Daigoro, I'm not treating you courteously because with your first essay, you demonstrated to me that you don't deserve it. Your tone since the start has been adversarial towards trans people, and it's unacceptable to me. You don't come from any place of open-mindedness; you just unload your thinly veiled transphobia and keep doubling down. There is no reason for me to approach your obvious dislike of the issue from a place of mutual respect. I support the self-determination of trans people, and believe they deserve every avenue of affirmation available to them.

The other posters who are less "emotional" than I am have presented their points of view logically and respectfully and it made no difference to you.
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#73
(04-12-2020, 04:01 PM)chabang Wrote:
Quote:I don't know.  As I've indicated before, from what I've been reading the drug hasn't been around long enough (and probably not tested according to standard) to know what its long-term effects are.

you keep trotting out variations of this line and it's just plain not true. They've been a widely used drug in the treatment of gender dysmorphia for more than 22 years (having prior to that gone through regulatory and safety process's) which makes them, in "drugs" terms actually quite an old and well established drug. The covid treatments will have had just weeks of testing before being granted, just about every HIV treatment is only a few years old, most cancer treatments are only a few years old. The claim that this is a new drug or treatment process is completely and totally not true, nor by definition is the suggestion we don't have a clue as to the long term impacts.

A cursory search show a considerable number of papers about use of puberty suppressors published in all the big legitimate review forums - Nature, the BMJ, The Lancet, Oxford university, Paediatrics, plus a host of government and health service publishing forums.

If you don't agree with this course of treatment at least have the balls to say it's because YOU don't like it or are uncomfortable about it; stop claiming this is some modern fringe crazy untested experiment with no oversight or scientific data behind it because that is untrue.

I'll take your point on the Covid vaccine. But I will say that they've had decades of experience with similar vaccines for similar flus to use as a foundation.  More international co-operation and more money thrown at it that than probably any other drug has in history.  Money will always speed things along.

A cursory search also shows a considerable number of papers from big legitimate review forums that question and refute the use of Puberty Blockers. I can supply links to PDF's of the three or four that I've been reading this week alone in light of the court judgement. 

There is no consensus on the use of these drugs for arresting puberty in children. And no medical consensus alone should be enough to restrict their usage.  

(04-12-2020, 04:26 PM)Heinrich Wrote: Daigoro, I'm not treating you courteously because with your first essay, you demonstrated to me that you don't deserve it. Your tone since the start has been adversarial towards trans people, and it's unacceptable to me. You don't come from any place of open-mindedness; you just unload your thinly veiled transphobia and keep doubling down. There is no reason for me to approach your obvious dislike of the issue from a place of mutual respect. I support the self-determination of trans people, and believe they deserve every avenue of affirmation available to them.

The other posters who are less "emotional" than I am have presented their points of view logically and respectfully and it made no difference to you.

If you'd like to point out where I've been adversarial to trans people please do. Genuinely, find the lines and quote them in the context with which they were given, and show me where I've have shown the least bit of disrespect to trans people. Or just continue to lie.  It's up to you.

I have been adversarial with you, yes. Because you've sworn, insulted, lied, mislead and tantrumed like a toddler from the start, denying evidence as it's been presented and with fingers in years repeated the same dogma 'without any open-mindedness' to what others have been saying. If you notice how I have interacted with everyone else, I've listened, presented my points and even agreed with them in cases. You however, with all the intellect and charm of a wet sock, have (and I'll repeat myself) sworn, insulted, lied, mislead and tantrumed like a toddler from the start, denying evidence as it's been presented.  You can call me transphobic all you like, it doesn't make it true.  And I'm OK with that and my Trans friends are OK with that.  But keep throwing out those insults sunshine, because shit sticks eventually right?

And as I said earlier "People welcoming clarity about the legality of children consenting to treatment is not transphobia just because some trans people disagree. If people say EVERYTHING is transphobia how will anyone spot when it really IS transphobia?".
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#74
Rather frustratingly you've completely missed the point of my post - the claim was repeatedly made that this was "new" and "not properly tested" and that is an outright untruth. If there's one thing the last 4 years have demonstrated perfectly its that allowing complete untruths to be endlessly repeated as "fact" doesn't help anyone or anything in any positive way, nor do anything to educate, help or change the mind of anyone else.

As you say there are research papers that are pro, there are research papers that are anti - fortunately that's not how the peer review system works - it's not about which team has more goals and I'm happy to go on a deep dive on particular issues or points they have discovered but first lets make sure everyone stops repeating claims that are outright untruths to justify their position on this matter. Lets start with this claim you've just made

Quote:There is no consensus on the use of these drugs for arresting puberty in children. And no medical consensus alone should be enough to restrict their usage.


The very fact that puberty blockers ARE the treatment of choice for this situation in a very large number of medical settings, institutions & methodologies means that - by definition - there is a consensus; so please stop making the claim that "there's no consensus on the use of these drugs" because that is just not true
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#75
A lot of heated words here over an issue that was begun with an article posted from The Guardian about whether a child under the age of 16 is competent to understand the nature of the treatment.

Such an understanding must include “the immediate and long-term consequences of the treatment, the limited evidence available as to its efficacy or purpose, the fact that the vast majority of patients proceed to the use of cross-sex hormones, and its potential life-changing consequences for a child”.

The question is straight forward enough:  Is a child under the age of 16 competent to understand the nature of the treatment?

I don't know, but am willing to go along with a worldwide consensus that there is an age (16 give or take) where such a delineation does exist.  The high court says it's 16.  Is that what the argument is about?

The "debate" here has transformed into a heated one about trans rights with undertones of accusations of transphobia, insults and whatnot.
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#76
Yes but as I pointed out. At least here in the UK there is not a definite line-in-the-sand of under 16 you can't make decisions on treatment, over 16 you can.
There are many cases where under 16s can decide on treatment often without consulting their parents.
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#77
I don't know about those other cases plus I'm not a legal scholar.  What I do believe is that taking a drug that does profound irreversible changes to one's body (and mind too?) is not in the same league as birth control pills or smoking marijuana.

From The Guardian article I did not get the sense that the high court made an ethical judgement about puberty blockers overall.  Rather it ruled that the treatment is serious enough to warrant a stronger standard and said that age 16 is that standard.  After that age a youth can do as he/she chooses.

As I see it, 16 is already past puberty for almost all so it becomes a useless argument.  The option going forward is surgery.

Instead this thread has become a bar room brawl on trans rights. Loon
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#78
They're not necessarily permanent changes. And we can't really study it without administering it. I would say possible side effects versus happiness with oneself is an easy choice. How much more can these kids possibly be put through to make sure they're "ready" to make that choice for themselves? If the parents approve and doctors are there, what on earth is the harm? They can always stop treatment.
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#79
The high court said that the decision is not for the under-16 youths. I guess that leaves it to the parents.
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#80
Thank you for that clarity. Whew.
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