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Puberty blockers to be blocked for under-16s
#41
(03-12-2020, 05:02 AM)Heinrich Wrote: From what I can read as a layman, the side effects are minimal and lower suicidality.

Over how many years and on how many subjects were the trials done?  (how many trials?)

(03-12-2020, 05:02 AM)Heinrich Wrote: And they're less permanent than surgery.

To me puberty blocker sounds like a micro-penis (and who knows what else?).
That's not permanent?  (I thought I read that the effects are irreversible)

(03-12-2020, 05:02 AM)Heinrich Wrote: This is not sewing people together or performing uncertified amputations.

Not much information in the Guardian article, but if the trials are not finished yet we don't know which is worse.
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#42
Sewing people together is worse. Always.

Did you happen to also see, if a kid decides they are comfortable as their assigned gender, they can stop treatment and enter puberty? It's not even permanent and is used for other conditions and in adults.
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#43
(03-12-2020, 05:02 AM)Heinrich Wrote: From what I can read as a layman, the side effects are minimal and lower suicidality.

What about micropenises, sterilization and loss of sex drive post teens sounds minimal to you?

Also Suicidality? What is it with TRA's and this constant push telling us that if we don't drug the kids they'll commit suicide? The weaponisation of suicide in this way is abusive, and it’s abusive to trans children themselves. Stop telling them they will almost inevitably hurt themselves. It's straight out of the abuser's handbook. There is no robust evidence to support it. 

It is stupid and reckless to claim X or Y will lead to more suicides and downright dangerous to put such ideas into vulnerable peoples heads.  There is no statistical evidence for the claim that puberty in “trans teens” leads to suicide, and it is utterly shameful claim even to utter publicly. Young people are vulnerable to ideas. Before saying anything about suicide - take a step back and look at facts rather than recounting the spurious and ideological driven claims of people with a vested interests.

(03-12-2020, 06:06 AM)Heinrich Wrote: Did you happen to also see, if a kid decides they are comfortable as their assigned gender, they can stop treatment and enter puberty? It's not even permanent and is used for other conditions and in adults.

That's not true though is it? The drugs are not reversible. Stonewall and Mermaids both were forced to change their web pages making that claim because they were lying. The NHS changed it's website.  If there was evidence that the kids could stop taking the puberty blockers and everything would go back to normal we'd know about it and Mermaids would make damn well sure we all knew it.   They were asked to produce this evidence IN COURT and the judges expressed surprise at their lack of data, lack of research, and lack of so-called "evidence".I mean if they had it, court would have been the time. Right?

And the drug is used on adults for cancer treatment. Not even remotely comparable.
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#44
I think a lot of this boils down to whether we think teenagers are children or young adults.
And as ever.. its like we decide this on a subject by subject basis to suit us.

If a 13 year old lad murders someone.. we treat them as an adult. They are of an age where they can decide what is wrong and right. Cos it suits us. They are evil and must be locked up.

But if that 13 year old lad is a trans-female and wants to start the processes of transitioning so they can actually start living their real life.. we treat them as a child. They can't possibly know what they want yet. Its a phase. They must do as we tell them.
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#45
But they’re still under parental responsibility like I said. This is why the idea they’re being given hormones as teens is baffling.

You’ve either got two sets of supportive parents, or one of them’s winging it.
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#46
this will get quashed (or at least neutered) on appeal - there's too many ramifications that cause much more serious problems.

For example - a 12 year old has a (benign, definitely not life threatening or painful) but very pronounced tumour on their face. On the basis that under 16 year olds can't give informed consent to medical procedures & can't possibly be mature enough to make decisions about the consequences of surgery do the doctors just leave it growing for 4 years (with all the societal and mental ramifications that brings) until on the day of their 16th birthday they have surgery to remove it leaving the patient with scarring (both physical and mental) that will remain for years?
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#47
Can't 14 yr old girls get the contraceptive pill without their parents knowledge or consent ?
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#48
Sure can! Which also affects their body chemistry and hormones, etc. If this weren't about trans kids and about some other medical issue requiring hormonal drugs, everyone in this thread would be saying absolutely, do it.

For example, are any of you terfs this upset about kids smoking, or being given caffeine? Both of those things also have serious ramifications on the development of children, but I never seem to see anyone get so upset about those issues. Never in my life has anyone on a forum written essays of mouth-foaming vitriol over children smoking and what we need to do about it. Hm...
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#49
Loon

Those are not fair equivalences.  We're talking about a franken-drug here. Sad
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#50
Here's something I didn't know,

Puberty blockers can be used to treat early or "precocious" puberty, which can occur before the age of 9  Wow

Now, there can be physical reasons for the treatment, but they are also used in cases where it's felt early puberty would cause emotional issues. Now, if a kid is suffering emotional issues because they feel they are the wrong gender...what's the difference? If blockers are wrong for trans kids then surely they're wrong for early puberty kids who might be suffering emotional issues too,
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#51
(03-12-2020, 05:17 PM)Parsifal Wrote: Loon

Those are not fair equivalences.  We're talking about a franken-drug here. Sad

Every drug was a frankendrug at some point, and these are not. My equivalences are valid. Unlike yours, bringing fucking Mengele into the discussion. These are hormone drugs that can be stopped immediately depending on how the patient comes to terms with their identity. Not unnecessary, experimental surgery. The doctors and psychologists administering these treatments know better than any of us, and they should be allowed to help their patients.
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#52
(03-12-2020, 05:17 PM)Parsifal Wrote: Loon

Those are not fair equivalences.  We're talking about a franken-drug here. Sad

The contraceptive pill available to 14yr olds without parental consent have side listed side effects ranging from the usual nausia/vomiting type stuff through numbness in limbs, sudden unexpected bleedings, fainting, dizziness, seizures, perment changes to breasts, difficulty breathing, infertility, increased risk of breast cancer, treble the risk of thrombosis, heart attack, stroke, liver tumours....

What's your point?
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#53
Some well-intentioned (and seriously misguided) defenders of trans rights seem to take a black and white approach to the matter, it's all or nothing.  That is a cause for ignorance.

(03-12-2020, 05:49 PM)Heinrich Wrote: The doctors and psychologists administering these treatments know better than any of us, and they should be allowed to help their patients.

Be careful of quacks though.

(03-12-2020, 06:25 PM)chabang Wrote: What's your point?

This drug should not be given to anyone under the age of 16 which is already past puberty.  So it has no valid use (except for cancer patients so far?).
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#54
So every doctor who agrees with you is not a quack and every doctor who doesn't is. Got it.
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#55
(03-12-2020, 06:28 PM)Parsifal Wrote: This drug should not be given to anyone under the age of 16 which is already past puberty.  So it has no valid use (except for cancer patients so far?).

Just to check, does that include the early puberty scenario I talked about above?
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#56
(03-12-2020, 07:09 PM)Ollie2UK Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 06:28 PM)Parsifal Wrote: This drug should not be given to anyone under the age of 16 which is already past puberty.  So it has no valid use (except for cancer patients so far?).

Just to check, does that include the early puberty scenario I talked about above?

I don't know.  As I've indicated before, from what I've been reading the drug hasn't been around long enough (and probably not tested according to standard) to know what its long-term effects are.  Jumping the gun because it seems like a good idea is usually not wise. Shakes

It seems like everyone who has good intentions regarding trans rights are jumping on this bandwagon and perhaps believing that anyone who doesn't is transphobic (although it hasn't been said explicitly).  That is classic ignorance.  Extreme liberals are no better than the extreme right-wingers.

My impression so far is that puberty blockers is a poorly conceived idea.  Surgery might well be the less dangerous choice.
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#57
(03-12-2020, 01:33 PM)ladsnet Wrote: I think a lot of this boils down to whether we think teenagers are children or young adults.
And as ever.. its like we decide this on a subject by subject basis to suit us.

If a 13 year old lad murders someone.. we treat them as an adult. They are of an age where they can decide what is wrong and right. Cos it suits us. They are evil and must be locked up.

But if that 13 year old lad is a trans-female and wants to start the processes of transitioning so they can actually start living their real life.. we treat them as a child. They can't possibly know what they want yet. Its a phase. They must do as we tell them.

I sort of agree with you here. Kids that commit crimes have a diminished responsibility for their actions due to their still developing brains. They most definitely should not face the same punishment as an adult for the same crimes. But by that same token, kids are in no place to make potentially life altering decisions that will damage their healty body. It's the brain that does our thinking. And if the adolescent brain is to develop the ability to do that properly it has to go through puberty which changes it dramatically. Like I said before, current science puts us in our early twenties before the brain has fully developed.


(03-12-2020, 03:59 PM)ladsnet Wrote: Can't 14 yr old girls get the contraceptive pill without their parents knowledge or consent ?

They can and it's an entirely different pill with an entirely different set of side effects. The vast majority of young women who take the Pill have none to very few side effects. The side effects of the pill: irregular menstrual bleeding (more common with the mini-pill) nausea, headaches, dizziness, and breast tenderness, Vs the side effects of puberty blockers: long-term spatial memory & emotional maturation affected, IQ drops during suppression, myelination & cognitive functions are negatively affected, sexual dysfunction & infertility, pelvic pain, irritability, emotional instability, depression &menopause-like symptoms IN CHILDREN, girls treated with Lupron for precocious puberty report drastic bone density loss... FDA reports 10,000 side effects of Lupron, including seizures, depression & anxiety, GnRH II - responsible for sexual maturation Blockers directly interfere with GnRH II. Sex hormones are necessary for proper brain maturation, especially emotional stability & impulsive behavior control.

(03-12-2020, 04:33 PM)Heinrich Wrote: Sure can! Which also affects their body chemistry and hormones, etc. If this weren't about trans kids and about some other medical issue requiring hormonal drugs, everyone in this thread would be saying absolutely, do it.

For example, are any of you terfs this upset about kids smoking, or being given caffeine? Both of those things also have serious ramifications on the development of children, but I never seem to see anyone get so upset about those issues. Never in my life has anyone on a forum written essays of mouth-foaming vitriol over children smoking and what we need to do about it. Hm...

If you really believe that we'd be OK with kids being unnecessarily medicalised just becuase you're ok with kids being unnecessarily medicalised but the only reason we have a problem is because *trans* then boy you are so far down the rabbit hole on this it's worrying.

And smoking and caffine?  Really?  That's the most inane thing that you've said yet.  Like willfully dumb. Seriously if you need someone to point out the difference to you between a teenager sneaking cigarettes and a ideologically blinded medical professional prescribing drugs that they know have seriously damaging short to mid term side effects and who knows what as far as long time side effects go then you really do have problems.  It's funny that you added a wee affectation at the end of your point(?) there though like you've sacored some sort of slam dunk and are dead proud of your point.  Hm?  Hahahahaha.

Also Essays?  If you think anything on here is an essay then you've clearly never read an actual essay (which may go some way to explaining... well... you.) And mouth foaming vitriol? You've sworn at me, insulted me, misrepresented what I've said, lied about what I've said and accused me of things that are demonstrably (in this thread) untrue.  In a display of misinformation spreading man-babyish tantrum throwing (it's been postively Trumpian) howls of narcissistic anger that anyone would dare disagree with your Dogma, you've been the very model of mouth foaming vitriol.


(03-12-2020, 05:42 PM)Ollie2UK Wrote: Here's something I didn't know,

Puberty blockers can be used to treat early or "precocious" puberty, which can occur before the age of 9  Wow

Now, there can be physical reasons for the treatment, but they are also used in cases where it's felt early puberty would cause emotional issues. Now, if a kid is suffering emotional issues because they feel they are the wrong gender...what's the difference? If blockers are wrong for trans kids then surely they're wrong for early puberty kids who might be suffering emotional issues too,

It's because of these kids that went through Precocious puberty and had taken the drugs that we know what we know about the mid term side effects.  So no, Doctors shouldn't still be prescribing them.


(03-12-2020, 06:28 PM)Parsifal Wrote: Some well-intentioned (and seriously misguided) defenders of trans rights seem to take a black and white approach to the matter, it's all or nothing.  That is a cause for ignorance.

For the most part, yes, I think people are well intentioned and genuinely believe that they're trying to protect a group that need it, some seem to be driven by a need to appear as "woke" as possible and others are definitely using it as an excuse to issue rape and death threats to women but do it with a degree of societal approval.  

But there is a large portion of TRA folk are driven by a seriously sinister ideaology  with its roots in a troupe of twentieth century philosophers and sexologists. They adopted Sartre’s idea that a person has no real fixed identity, and stole Nietzsche’s concept of “affirmation.” Reading through papers written by TRA's like Rachel McKinnon lays it all bare.
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#58
(03-12-2020, 11:13 PM)Daigorō Wrote: You've sworn at me, insulted me, misrepresented what I've said, lied about what I've said and accused me of things that are demonstrably (in this thread) untrue.

Oh he does that.  Don't take it personally.  He does that to me too.
He has even "quoted" me as saying something that I neither said nor believe. LOL
Even when he says flattering things about me he sometimes embellishes it a bit.  It's ok. Smile
Look, he has imagination, a virtuous quality.
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#59
Quote:They can and it's an entirely different pill with an entirely different set of side effects.
That wasn't the argument. The argument (not with you at this point) was that kids cannot get medication without their parents consent.. when clearly, in some cases they can.

Quote:It seems like everyone who has good intentions regarding trans rights are jumping on this bandwagon and perhaps believing that anyone who doesn't is transphobic (although it hasn't been said explicitly). That is classic ignorance. Extreme liberals are no better than the extreme right-wingers.
But my original point.. at the start of the thread... was that I was 50/50 on this. The thing that got my goat up was the fact that the person who brought and won this case said in the news interview (and if you search, in various other written articles she has done) that pretty much every kid who goes for this treatment doesn't know what they're doing and is actually suffering from depression/body image issues and is not really transgender.
If anyone is transphobic.. in relation to kids.. it seems to be her
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#60
I would agree with the part about every "kid" who goes for this treatment doesn't know understand what they're doing.  (Wait until 16 - that's what they say)  The rest of that sentence I just don't know and probably wouldn't agree with.
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