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Puberty blockers to be blocked for under-16s
#21
Yeah I don't get the bathroom issue.
Although I'm ready to be enlightened.

Women go in cubicles.
Men do have open urinals but are they scared transitioning females will stand next to them? Really?

It always seemed like a complete non-issue used by the anti-trans (eg JKR) as a feeble excuse for their irrational hatred.
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#22
Maybe they would get to see what a plastic penis looks like. Authentic?? Confused
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#23
Because trans people are far less of a risk to women than cis men. Again: anyone who wants to assault a woman can do so without going through the trouble of faking a trans identity. There's this big hypothetical conspiracy that men will pose as trans to get into women's shelters or women's prisons to assault them. This ignores that it would be damned hard to get that by everybody, and also assumes cis women never assault each other. And it also ignores that trans people are far more likely than any other group to be assaulted or killed in or outside prison, especially if they are sent to men's prisons. There just aren't enough people committing these hypothetical crimes to put trans people at risk.
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#24
Is it like 'all gays go after kids' in the 50s & 60s ?
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#25
(03-12-2020, 12:22 AM)Heinrich Wrote: There's this big hypothetical conspiracy that men will pose as trans to get into women's shelters or women's prisons to assault them. This ignores that it would be damned hard to get that by everybody
That has actually happened. So it’s not a hypothetical concern.
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#26
One case. How many trans women have been assaulted because they were sent to a men-only prison. Also guessing cis women assault each other. It's not protecting them any more by denying trans people to go to the prisons of their identity.

*at least 11 transwomen were assaulted because they were sent to male-only prisons. What about their protection?
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#27
(03-12-2020, 12:05 AM)ladsnet Wrote: Lets keep it civil ladies!

So are we saying that girls are going for gender reassignment just because they're depressed ?  Like they would self harm or have an eating disorder ?

And I don't think defending JK Rowling's views is helping your stance Daigorō. Isn't it pretty widely accepted that she's just anti-trans ?

It's interesting that the people who claim that JK Rowling is transphobic are the people who haven't actually read what she wrote. Go take a look at her essay, at the tweets that first created the 'storm', she say's nothing that anyone would reasonably describe as transphopic. She does raise some very real concerns though. Concerns that in this case has been absolutely merited. 

For the record, I'm not a huge fan of Rowling. I would place a portion of blame at her feet for the reason that Scotland never got Indy. She pumped so much money into the "Better Together" campaign it would make Jeff Bezos sweat.  But I'm also accepting that we people i like can hold opinions i don't agree with and people i don't like can hold opinions that i do agree with. 

I wouldn't say she's anti trans, not at all.  I don't believe that many that are called 'anti-trans' are actually so.  The people that do believe that are the same people who believe that UK "Terfs" are funded by the US religious right. (makes spooky ghost noises). When, if you've actually met any of these people or actually spoke to them (UK based ones I mean, I am fully aware of some US based religious zealots and hard right lunatics) you would find that most are left wing women (many of them lesbians) concerned about what is happening to children and the attacks by a fair sized portion of TRA's against them (see genital preferences).

Social contagion has always spread easier in girls than boys. The rise in (so so so so many FtM) YouTubers and their relevant social media channels (hello tumblr) sees a rise in GD/transition is the new cutting or eating disorder. Point one is basically the entire ROGD theory. The social pull is even stronger though.  A fad glorified into a civil rights issue. Again, we've seen it before, it's cyclical teen suicide, anorexia and self harm.  The difference now is that there are the aforementioned ideologically driven adults wielding prescription pads and scalpels. There's Suzie Green at Mermaids whisking her young son off to Thailand for gender reassignment surgery to female because the kids dad had been very vocal about not wanting a homosexual son. There's even video out there of her laughing at her sons micropenis (thanks to the puberty blockers).

I'm not saying that there aren't genuine cases of gender dysphoria and yes trans rights are human rights, but that means that trans identifying/dysphoric children have the same rights as all other children regarding consent protections. So if you support trans rights you should be supporting any judgement upholding those protections.

(03-12-2020, 12:19 AM)ladsnet Wrote: Yeah I don't get the bathroom issue.
Although I'm ready to be enlightened.

Women go in cubicles.
Men do have open urinals but are they scared transitioning females will stand next to them?  Really?

It always seemed like a complete non-issue used by the anti-trans (eg JKR) as a feeble excuse for their irrational hatred.

I think the issue many women have is indeed again a safeguarding on. I don't see a problem but then that is because, and lets be honest, transmen pose no threat to me. There have been multiple cases though of women being assault by men in their bathrooms.

The issue is less that of transwomen and more of men using 'trans' in order to just walk in. If a man walks in dressed in a suit a woman can rightly raise the alarm. If a man walks in a suit but the woman can't raise the alarm because there's a sign out front that tells her not to raise the alarm because anyone can be anything they want to be (see Gregor Murray et al.) then she has every right to be worried.

(03-12-2020, 12:31 AM)Heinrich Wrote: One case. How many trans women have been assaulted because they were sent to a men-only prison. Also guessing cis women assault each other. It's not protecting them any more by denying trans people to go to the prisons of their identity.

*at least 11 transwomen were assaulted because they were sent to male-only prisons. What about their protection?

What I hear you saying is that the rights of men trump the right of women. And that's where many feminists see a problem. They have rights protected in law to single sex provisions. Precisely because of cases like Jumblr mentioned. and there is more than one. and even if there wasn't how many does there need to be? What is the number that the risk is deemed acceptable?

(03-12-2020, 12:24 AM)ladsnet Wrote: Is it like 'all gays go after kids' in the 50s & 60s ?

Not really. There was no medicalization that would make more kids irreversibly gay. in the way that there is medicalization now that seems to be being used to make gay kids straight (by changing their sex).  There's a reason that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are so very pro trans (with state funded procedures for those who seek them) and so very anti gay (still punishable by death).
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#28
Keira Bell said...
Quote:Almost every girl (if not all) that wants to or has transitioned has felt like they are wrong because they do not conform to something that this society deems as important or necessary

Utter bollocks. She is taking what happened to her and painting all trans kids with the same brush.
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#29
Phil, I'm really glad you're in charge.
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#30
So if a boy indicates that he believes that he's really female and his parents allow him to get the drugs and he grows a micro-penis and later (post-puberty) decides that he's really straight-male or gay-male, then what?

Seems to me that post-puberty surgery is the smarter way to go.
Puberty blockers sound like franken-science to me. Loon

Go ahead, flame me. LOL
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#31
It doesn't really matter what you think about it. For many kids, it seems like the right decision for them. We certainly went the other way in the 1950s when behaviorism was in vogue. We made trans people out of people who weren't trans just because it was "easier." Turns out it was a godawful mistake. If it's a mistake for them, that's as much theirs to deal with. I've seen a lot of these "I regret my surgery" stories debunked, and they should by no means stand as examples to all.
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#32
(03-12-2020, 01:48 AM)Parsifal Wrote: So if a boy indicates that he believes that he's really female and his parents allow him to get the drugs and he grows a micro-penis and later (post-puberty) decides that he's really straight-male or gay-male, then what?

Seems to me that post-puberty surgery is the smarter way to go.
Puberty blockers sound like franken-science to me. Loon

Go ahead, flame me. LOL

Indeed. These are children and safeguarding is the priority/  It absolutely has to be.

Explaining to a 10 year-old boy that the pills he want to take will give him a micro penis and make him infertile do we really believe that he's in a position to understand that? Are the parents who (very probably think that are doing the right thing because if they don't they'll be called terf and bigot and transphobe id they don't) in the best position to decide?

Anyone with half a heart, a couple of brain cells and inch of moral fibre would say likewise surely.


(03-12-2020, 01:58 AM)Heinrich Wrote: It doesn't really matter what you think about it. For many kids, it seems like the right decision for them. We certainly went the other way in the 1950s when behaviorism was in vogue. We made trans people out of people who weren't trans just because it was "easier." Turns out it was a godawful mistake. If it's a mistake for them, that's as much theirs to deal with. I've seen a lot of these "I regret my surgery" stories debunked, and they should by no means stand as examples to all.

Its almost as if ideological theories and not best practice in childcare and acceptance of biological realities were driving this.
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#33
"Biological realities" what about the brain that tells a kid that they are not the gender they were assigned? This isn't a learned behavior. What about intersex kids?

All of your arguments boil down to you think you know what's best for every single genderqueer kid out there, and it's to conform to an obsolete binary idea of gender. Parents and kids know themselves better than you ever will. We treat all sorts of other issues with medication in kids. Gender should be no different.
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#34
(03-12-2020, 02:16 AM)Heinrich Wrote: "Biological realities" what about the brain that tells a kid that they are not the gender they were assigned? This isn't a learned behavior.

I've read/heard from numerous sources, plus had a conversation with the headmaster of a school, that children are first able to reason at around the age of 16.  (Maybe that has something to do with 16 being the age of consent in many places)  Until then it's the parents' decision.  After that the parents have no control anymore.  It's not up to a child to decide. Shakes

(03-12-2020, 02:16 AM)Heinrich Wrote: We treat all sorts of other issues with medication in kids. Gender should be no different.

It's a BIG difference.  It's profound and irreversible. Wink
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#35
(03-12-2020, 02:16 AM)Heinrich Wrote: "Biological realities" what about the brain that tells a kid that they are not the gender they were assigned? This isn't a learned behavior. What about intersex kids?

All of your arguments boil down to you think you know what's best for every single genderqueer kid out there, and it's to conform to an obsolete binary idea of gender. Parents and kids know themselves better than you ever will. We treat all sorts of other issues with medication in kids. Gender should be no different.

Intersex is an entirely different condition and the one thing that I have learned for sure while following this debate for the last couple of years is that the VAST majority of intersex people do not want to have their condition confused with transgenderism. It is not the same and to claim that it is shows you in a very poor light.

What about the brain? As hormones flood the body during puberty the brain is still developing.  Most recent science says that it does not finish developing until your early twenties. What a person thinks they are at 12 is not the same as what they think they are at 22. And no, I'm not saying that i know best for everyone, I'm saying  that at that age, children should not make irreversible decisions that will affect the rest of their lives.

Puberty is not a disease. Gender dysphoria is not a fatal illness and drugs are not the only option to treat it.  Treatment isn't being refused. If the kid really does feel that way (and again we know that 80% desist. I'll say that again because you seem to keep ignoring it. 80% of mostly just gay and lesbian and gender non confirming kids desist when the treatment doesn't set them down the path to surgery) then they'll still feeel that way at 18 when they can start hormones.  If they all start down the Lupron road then you're damning them to a miserable existence purely for an ideological cause that is at best homophobic and misogynistic and at worse akin to other dangerously stupid and aggressive pseudo-scientific procedures like lobotomies and ECT.
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#36
The children and parents should come to these decisions together. My point remains: our opinions should not stop the possibility for questioning kids out there. A cursory search has also shown that the limited studies out there show no difference in mental performance whether on them or not. It's also a postponement, not a complete shut down of it. They are used to treat other disorders as well.
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#37
Josef Mengele would have loved this drug; a man ahead of his time.

Best to wait until a child is old enough to make a reasoned (and legal) decision.
I'm not convinced that that this drug is less dangerous than the surgery.

Suggesting that the children and parents come to these decisions together does not preclude retribution (and litigation?) by the child against its parents in later years if they go through with the treatment.

This whole topic is a nasty hornet's nest.  Disgusted
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#38
Mengele liked forced and unnecessary surgery. These are tested medications used to treat more than trans kids and are voluntary. Jesus Christ.
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#39
For a child under 16 it's not "voluntary".

Tested? On how many over how many years?

Jesus Christ.
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#40
From what I can read as a layman, the side effects are minimal and lower suicidality. And they're less permanent than surgery. They should remain an option. And yes, I think kids can know who they are before 16. It should be monitored by medical professionals, psychiatrists, and parents, like any treatment. This is not sewing people together or performing uncertified amputations.
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