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Puberty blockers to be blocked for under-16s
#1
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/d...ourt-rules


In summary..

Kids/Young People who are transgender and wish to make the first steps to transitioning will now be blocked from accessing drugs to prevent the onset of puberty - the first step to their reassignment which stops them the distress of going through 'the wrong' puberty.


Thoughts ?


I was a bit 50/50 when I saw the first reports on the news a few days ago. I can see the 'too young' argument but also.. having watched a Louis Theroux docu on the issue it seemed clear that many young people definately do 'know' at a young age and for their mental wellbeing, these drugs are a good thing.

However... the thing that disturbed me about this case, and the decision.. was at the end of the interview with the woman who brought the case (on the Beeb I think) they asked if she was worried that this would harm kids who DID 100% know they wanted to transition.. and her reply was along the lines of 'none do. its always a phase'
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#2
(02-12-2020, 12:40 PM)ladsnet Wrote: her reply was along the lines of 'none do. its always a phase'

Fuck that shit. 

I'm similar on the 50 50 front; would hope that I would fully support anyone who is owning  their gender. An old acquaintance announced it on FB day of Pride this year and I got really emotional for her, her wife and their kid. Same with Elliot Page yesterday. 

I also think that the world is fucked up, and gender identity and related matters aren't spoken about in an open enough fashion that children (and their parents/role models) can see anything beyond a small world: there's still too much of an assumption in most cultures that everyone is straight, and while that is changing and being challenged, it's still not enough.

That said...I somewhat agree on the age matter, probably just because I haven't experienced it though After all, I kinda knew I was gay from about 4/5 (and fancied Commander Riker), but didn't have the skill-set or support network or internet to  start to assess that. While I get that that is wholly different, I can see some similarities.

With that in mind, I remember watching something on Channel 4 within the last 2-3 years that was a bunch of very-white school-kids being swapped with a  Muslim school in order to assess each other's differences and similarities. One of the kids from the public/private school (I can never remember how/why you guys call them over there) identified as trans and came across as SUCH a little cunt, insisting on remaining a racist little fuck in response to what seemed like a genuine, inoffensive and polite question about their identity (and, if I remember correctly, there was even an apology that they refused to accept.)  At an age of 10-12-ish, that came across as far too young to be so stubbornly insistent on their own identity when they hadn't even learned how to be a good human.
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#3
The whole issue of trans rights has become incredibly toxic and I really can't see why. The likes of JK Rowling wading in with their ignorant views doesn't help. It just seems to make both sides more entrenched,

I'm really not sure where I stand on puberty blockers. It seems like they are a lifesaver to some kids and others - such as Keria Bell - have a very different experience with them,

I guess the answer lies with more support and better counselling/medical advice. I doubt it's an area that receives much funding and more research/better training for those supporting kids through this would be a start,

It's really difficult subject. Trans rights is a no brainer, but obviously there will be some young kids who really haven't figured out their identity at such a young age,
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#4
Yeah I get the impression that the whole issue is where the 'gay' issue was 50 years ago. Some of the objectors are just baffling. Its another of those "why on earth is it such a big deal to YOU what people do with their life?"

I certainly wouldn't want to allow surgery until the age of 18 but I don't know how 'damaging' the drugs can be except on a mental level.

Keria Bell just came across very much as 'I changed my mind so now I'm going to fuck it up for everybody'.. at least from what I saw.
I'm surprised the judgement went the way it did. I hope there'll be an appeal.
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#5
I suppose there is no research on the long-term effects of these drugs.  Is there?  I never heard about it before this and suppose they haven't been around that long.

It's the rare (pharmaceutical) drug that doesn't have side effects, especially ones that have such a profound effect on the physical body.

I'm reminded of East German Olympic athletes who were given performance drugs throughout their training and in the end wound up with lifelong debilitating effects.
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#6
I think their side effects are for the takers to worry about. You know, if the people and families have access and feel it's right, I don't see the issue. Even the minority of people who have second thoughts need to take responsibility.

There cannot possibly be more cases of forcing these on to kids (the COST for such a charade!) than there are kids who desperately want them to affirm their identity.
[+] 1 user Likes Heinrich's post
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#7
(02-12-2020, 06:56 PM)Heinrich Wrote: I think their side effects are for the takers to worry about.

Sure.  Best to have the facts and know ahead of time.
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#8
The use of puberty blockers in children has been. from the start, an ill advised, poorly evidenced experiment from therapists with backgrounds in post-structuralism whose philosophy had them believe that they were forging new meanings using the bodies of children. They have used Richard Rorty, Michel Foucault and Judith Butler, rather than any actual medical sources, to provide an intellectual rationale that has obscured the harms they were perpetrating in the name of "progress".

In less than a decade there has been a 1,460% increase in referrals of boys, & 5,337% increase in girls to the Tavistock Centre. Where previously the split had been a solid 50/50 the massive increase in girls seeking gender reassignment really should be raising alarm bells. The court judgment itself referenced the fact that in 2011 the gender split was roughly half and half between natal girls and boys but by 2019 the sex ratio had changed so that 76 per cent of referrals were females. There's something very wrong here, and the Tavistock not only provided no possible reasons for this but actually displayed a complete lack of intellectual curiosity about the fact. They just didn't care. And as has been recounted many times (and finally seen in court thanks to Kiera Bell) they rushed these kids into drugs that produce irreversible effects, often including infertility. Puberty blockers are neither harmless nor reversible. Hell even Mermaids and Stonewall have had to change their websites to finally admit this fact. There are many short-term side effects, the long-term side effects are unknown, and almost 100% of children who take them go on to take cross-sex hormones.

The most damning evidence of complacency/neglect/wilful malpractice in the service is the fact that the GIDS offersthese kids no alternative therapeutic treatment pathway... Far from being a last resort treatment, that we're always told that it is by TRA's, blockers and hormones are the only treatment for children with complex histories and mental health conditions. This is the result of a service that operates on the basis of ideology in place of clinical standards.

There is an element of social contagion here among teenage girls that we witnessed in the 80's with teenage suicide, in the 90's with anorexia and in the 00's with cutting and self harm that has exploded to previously unimaginable levels, by and large, thanks to social media.

But thanks to Trans-Rights Activists like Juno "Gay men are only gay because they can't be women" Dawson and Rachel "Genital preferences are transphobic" McKinnon and a slew of (many well meaning) others any discussion on this very real issue of child safe-guarding gets labelled as Transphobic. They pushed the "No Debate" mantra because they knew that when seen in the cold light of day it's indefensible. So they slander women like JK Rowling and Suzanne Moore who try and talk about the issues raised by contemporary TRA dogma and everyone nods and shouts "terf" while slapping themselves on the back for being so kind and caring and so terribly woke.
[+] 4 users Like Daigorō's post
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#9
Fuck off, TERF.
[+] 1 user Likes Heinrich's post
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#10
(02-12-2020, 10:15 PM)Heinrich Wrote: Fuck off, TERF.

Brilliant, intelligent, reasoned and thoughtful retort.
[+] 1 user Likes Daigorō's post
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#11
Still better than yours, transphobe.

You don't deserve reasonable debate because you've already outed yourself as a piece of shit who wants to tell others who they are.
[+] 1 user Likes Heinrich's post
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#12
(02-12-2020, 10:24 PM)Heinrich Wrote: Still better than yours, transphobe.

You don't deserve reasonable debate because you've already outed yourself as a piece of shit who wants to tell others who they are.

OK, staying classy.  Good to see.  Where was I transphobic? Did I use transphobic language? Where did I say anything that could be construed as so?

Disagreeing with a philosophy that has caused very real harm to kids somehow makes me a "piece of shit"? If you can't find the words to participate genially in a discussion where our thoughts were asked for maybe this isn't the thread for you.
[+] 1 user Likes Daigorō's post
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#13
(02-12-2020, 10:33 PM)Daigorō Wrote:
(02-12-2020, 10:24 PM)Heinrich Wrote: Still better than yours, transphobe.

You don't deserve reasonable debate because you've already outed yourself as a piece of shit who wants to tell others who they are.

OK, staying classy.  Good to see.  Where was I transphobic? Did I use transphobic language? Where did I say anything that could be construed as so?

Disagreeing with a philosophy that has caused very real harm to kids somehow makes me a "piece of shit"? If you can't find the words to participate genially in a discussion where our thoughts were asked for maybe this isn't the thread for you.

-------------------

Diagoro - you aren't ALLOWED to have a different opinion. If you say anything at all, it means you are a 'transphobe'. That's the rule. They are too lazy to explain why they think you're wrong, in a calm respectful manner and to be honest, why should they, when the word 'transphobe' is available for them to lazily toss at you. Jobs a good 'un
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#14
Psychologists and medical professionals are onboard with these treatments. Being trans is not a "social contagion." If more people are trans today compared to years prior, it's because they feel safe enough to come out as such. This pattern has been repeated by sexual minorities throughout history. That we have the science now to help affirm identity is only beneficial.

How someone identifies and chooses to go about claiming that identity is their business, not yours. These treatments are life-saving to many trans kids struggling with their identities. Anecdotal bad experiences are no reason to cancel it for everybody to make YOU feel at peace.
[+] 1 user Likes Heinrich's post
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#15
(02-12-2020, 10:39 PM)Heinrich Wrote: Psychologists and medical professionals are onboard with these treatments. Being trans is not a "social contagion." If more people are trans today compared to years prior, it's because they feel safe enough to come out as such. This pattern has been repeated by sexual minorities throughout history. That we have the science now to help affirm identity is only beneficial.

How someone identifies and chooses to go about claiming that identity is their business, not yours. These treatments are life-saving to many trans kids struggling with their identities. Anecdotal bad experiences are no reason to cancel it for everybody to make YOU feel at peace.

OK, you seem to be projecting a little. It's nothing to do with me, or how "at peace" i feel, and it's not merely "anecdotal". For the record I live in a large multicultural cityand I am fairly regular on the scene. I have trans friends, both transmen and transwomen, one who I have known since high school. They have my full support. As does any trans person.  We ARE a community. But as community we should be able to point out where we see problems within that community. 

The issue here is that most of these kids turn out to be either gay or lesbian.  There is a record 80% desistance rate among teens with watchful waiting and an alternative therapeutic treatment pathway.  80%. Most of who identified as gay or lesbian or simply gender non-conforming once treatment was over. No drugs that would lead to sterilization or a pathway set to what would lead, ultimately, to unnecessary and harmful surgery. 80%. That's a hell of a lot of gay and lesbians kids that don't deserve to be sacrificed to this ideology.

And of course being trans is in and of itself not a social contagion. I never said that and you're purposely misrepresenting what I said.

There is however, undeniably elements scocial contagion in the rate of teenage girls seeking gender reassignment. The  sex ratio that had changed so that 76 per cent of referrals were females is so very clearly not just because more kids "feel safe enough to come out as such".  We've seen it again and again as I stated before. It's not an uncommon phenomena.
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#16
Let’s be clear, I’m speaking in general terms now. For anyone who is still under 18, they are still subject to parental responsibility. That means no-one can change the “child”’s name, take the “child” to live somewhere else (including abroad), make decisions about the “child”’s education, welfare and so on.

I have to obtain evidence from both parents* that they consent to a child’s name change before I can proceed with it. That has to be given in writing, not verbally or by e-Mail.

Surely the same thing applies with life-changing treatments?? If kids are able to get hormone therapies automatically, on their own, after just one session with a therapist and no counselling, that is deeply disturbing. At least, that’s the way it’s being put across.

It would also mean trans clinics are operating outside the law for under-18s.

And FWIW, Daigorō makes very valid points. I don’t think the right to seek gender reassignment is absolute, and unconditional. It’s part of a process.

*That still applies if the Dad, for example, had hung around long enough to be named on the birth certificate, but then buggered off. So 10 years later, the Mum still cannot change the child’s name on her own, except without a court order.
[+] 1 user Likes jumbler's post
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#17
Lets keep it civil ladies!

So are we saying that girls are going for gender reassignment just because they're depressed ? Like they would self harm or have an eating disorder ?

And I don't think defending JK Rowling's views is helping your stance Daigorō. Isn't it pretty widely accepted that she's just anti-trans ?
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#18
The issue about trans people gaining equal access to same-sex facilities has rattled a lot of people, because of safeguarding issues. That cannot be ignored or dismissed.

So actually, I think JK Rowling and Germaine Greer and so on do have valid points to make. However, that’s not really what we’re talking about here...
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#19
The bathroom debate? Really? It doesn't protect anybody and puts trans people in more danger because, guess what, men can just go in ladies' rooms to assault them anyway. Without dressing in women's clothing. Unless you want to post guards.

And yes, JK is a terf.
[+] 1 user Likes Heinrich's post
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#20
Self-determination doesn’t seem to put a lot of safeguards in place for cis-women. It’s similar to the blockers debate.
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