British Geography

[Kernow]

Quite a random debate I was having with a mate…. Obviously the politically and geographical bits get confused quite a lot. 

My initial thoughts were that the islands of Britain and Ireland make up the geographical British Isles. So one could say that all inhabitants of the British isles are British???

I used the examples of Canadians, Mexicans being Americans. They come from America, doesn’t matter that it’s not the USA. 

My mate was of the opinion that only people born in Britain could be British. 

Politically that’s nonsense, Falkland islanders, Gibraltans, northern Irish are British and obviously not born here. So just on the Geographical issue are Irish people British? 

I don’t want to annoy any Irish that are here, I don’t mean any offence. My only point was that I’m Cornish, British, European. Is an Irish person Irish, British, European.

[MintyRox]

The British Isles is the collective term for the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, the Isle of Man, the Inner and Outer Hebrides, the Northern Isles, and many other smaller islands.

People from Ireland are Irish, although they do live in the British Isles that doesn't make them British. British is a nationality consisting of the people of Great Britain (including the English, Welsh and Scottish people) and Northern Ireland, British oversees territories and crown dependencies.

[Kernow]

Yeah that all makes sense but I’m trying to focus on geography.

Someone from Norway is Norwegian, Scandinavian, European.

Being Scandinavian isn’t a nationality, so do we just not have a collective geographical term for people who come from the British isles.

Norwegian, Icelandic, Swedish, Finnish, Danish etc are Scandinavian

Irish, English, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish etc are what….?

[MintyRox]

There is no term for people who live within the British Isles specifically, it is a name of a group of islands geographically speaking. People do not come from the British Isles, but rather live on one of the islands within the British Isles.

Northern Irish, Scottish, English and Welsh are all ethic nations and are all considered British. They are all members of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. British nationality also includes any overseas territories and crown dependencies.

Ireland is a separate nation and also a member of the European Union. Cornish is a regional identity within England.

[Kernow]

I thought Cornish was an ethnic minority too nowadays?

[Gino Yurenni]

I thought Cornish was an ethnic minority too nowadays?

You need to see Seamas Carey's stage show

[Parsifal]

Northern Irish, Scottish, English and Welsh are all ethic nations and are all considered British.

If Scotland were to secede from the UK will Scots still be British?
Would the answer to that question help answer Kernow's question about the Irish?
If Scots are British now and the answer is that they will not be British later then what does it mean to be British?  Were they ever?  That would be analogous to the question about Ireland, pre-independence vs. post-independence (1922).  The Irish were British pre-1922.  Yes?  No argument there?

I see the two post-independence comparisons as equivalent (Ireland and Scotland).  (Yes?)  Would that help to answer Kernow's question, answering the same question in a different light?

Too bad Ryan is on sabbatical.  I'm sure he would have some choice words on the subject.

[Kernow]

Haha oh my gosh I’m sure he would! I’ll have to be extra nice to him.

In my view, yes, the Scot’s would still be British because they are part of the island of Britain and part of the British Isles. Even if Scotland wasn’t connected by land to England, they would still be British.

Ireland, is part of the British Isles therefore British too, no?

The general view after chinwagging about it today seems to be, people conflate being British (nationality) with British (coming from British isles). So yes, you could say an Irish person was British, but because of politics that term is too controversial.

I’m sure there are other examples but I don’t know enough about them to use. How about all the different Polynesian islands, they’re individual countries but they are still Polynesian..?

Caribbean islands? Again many different countries but still are Caribbean.

[Ollie2UK]

Irish, English, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish etc are what….?

Geographically, I'd say British Islanders.

Technically, Scots are not British either, since the name Britain (as opposed to Great Britain) only refers to England and Wales.

[MintyRox]

If Scotland were to achieve independence they would then become the independent nation of Scotland, located on the island of Great Britain situated within the British Isles. They would cease to be British.

[Kernow]

Irish, English, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish etc are what….?

Geographically, I'd say British Islanders.

Technically, Scots are not British either, since the name Britain (as opposed to Great Britain) only refers to England and Wales. 

Thank you, British islanders makes perfect sense. 

Not sure I was making it clear enough that I’m talking geographically and not politically.

---

One more example.

Iberia. Iberian simply refers to Iberia, which has two basic meanings: Someone or something originating in the Iberian Peninsula, namely from Spain, Portugal and Andorra.

That’s probably the closest example to the Britain and Ireland I can think of.

If you’re Spanish or Portuguese then you come from the Iberian peninsula, therefore Iberian.

If you’re Irish or (Great) British then you come from the British isles, therefore British.

In the olden days these isles were called Greater Britain and Lesser Britain. Someone from Lesser Britain must have been British..?

[Parsifal]

I used the examples of Canadians, Mexicans being Americans. They come from America, doesn’t matter that it’s not the USA.

I didn't want to bring this up before so as to not go off on a tangent.  But since we're giving examples ...

In fact, South Americans view themselves as Americans too and don't approve of USA residents referring to themselves as Americans.  So they refer to us (in the USA) as Norteamericanos.

Throw that into the mix.

[MintyRox]

Irish, English, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish etc are what….?

Geographically, I'd say British Islanders.

Technically, Scots are not British either, since the name Britain (as opposed to Great Britain) only refers to England and Wales. 

This isn't entirely correct.  Old Roman Britain consisted of England and some of Wales, but modern day Britain is just a shortened term for Great Britain, the main island of the British Isles, of which Scotland is a part.  

British is a nationality and refers to what remains since the collapse of the British Empire.

[Ollie2UK]

This isn't entirely correct.  Old Roman Britain consisted of England and some of Wales, but modern day Britain is just a shortened term for Great Britain, the main island of the British Isles, of which Scotland is a part.  

British is a nationality and refers to what remains since the collapse of the British Empire.

Yeah, it's all a bit confusing when you dig into it. Meanings change over time and the term "British" is a nationality now, as opposed to a geographic locator. (You can be British and live your entire life in the Falklands or Gibraltar, after all).

If you’re Irish or (Great) British then you come from the British isles, therefore British.

No, I'd say geographically you're a British Islander. Put it this way, I'd be VERY careful about calling someone from Ireland British to their face

In the olden days these isles were called Greater Britain and Lesser Britain. Someone from Lesser Britain must have been British..?

It's all a bit murky. Some ancient Roman writers referred to them as great Britain and little Britain, but even that wasn't technically correct. Post-conquest, the Romans referred to England and Wales as Britannia Major (Great Britain), and Brittany as Britannia Minor (Little Britain).

[Kernow]

Yeah of course I wouldn’t say it to an Irish person, I’m just talking in principle really. If someone who lives in a remote island, had no idea about politics of this country, are they incorrect to refer to an Irish person as british or British islander.

It’s not inconceivable to think that a geographical place name influences the name of the people that live there.

Nobody from the Celtic countries have a problem with being called Celts. It’s just because of the word ‘British’ that this is an issue.

I’m not sure if an Irish person would be happy or against being called a British Islander.

[Parsifal]

Ask ChatGPT.  See what it says. 

[jdcyl]

(Politically) The UK is officially The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, making it explicit that Northern Ireland is a separate entity from Great Britain.

Though for the Olympic team, ‘Team GB’ (whose hottie male athletes often appear in View) insists that despite ‘GB’, the team includes UK citizens from Northern Ireland. Interestingly enough, someone born in Northern Ireland has UK citizenship and Irish citizenship by birth, so an Olympic athlete born in Northern Ireland can choose whether to represent Team GB or Ireland. Many choose Ireland, because there is less competition in a smaller population of athletes to be selected for the team. (Of course, an Olympic athlete from anywhere in the world with one Irish grandparent is eligible for Irish citizenship and passport, and can choose to represent Ireland.)

[bassman]

I'm most comfortable with the term British Islander but the Republic of Ireland is definitely a separate country  

There is a definite distinction to be made between nationality & citizenship.

[Parsifal]

I asked ChatGPT ( )

Is an Irishman British?

ChatGPT:
"No, an Irishman is not British. The term "British" refers to people who are from Great Britain, which includes England, Scotland, and Wales. Ireland, on the other hand, is a separate country that is not part of Great Britain. While Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, which is a political entity that includes Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, which makes up the majority of the island of Ireland, is a separate country with its own government and laws. Therefore, an Irishman is not considered to be British unless they hold dual citizenship or have other ties to Great Britain."

(For what it's worth, ChatGPT apparently scans billions(?) of postings on the internet to get its information)

Is it the same question?  (It seemed there were subtleties and nuances on the subject in the discussion)

It's been reported that ChatGPT still has some glitches in it and sometimes gives wrong answers.  Also, a subtle rephrasing of the question could give a different answer.

[MintyRox]

Ordinance Survey have the following to say on the matter:

The United Kingdom

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (to give its full name) refers to the political union between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The UK is a sovereign state, but the nations that make it up are also countries in their own right.

From 1801 to 1922 the UK also included all of Ireland.

The Channel Islands and Isle of Man are not part of the UK, but are Crown Dependencies.

Great Britain

Great Britain is the official collective name of of England, Scotland and Wales and their associated islands. It does not include Northern Ireland and therefore should never be used interchangeably with ‘UK’ – something you see all too often.

Here at Ordnance Survey, we’re responsible for mapping Great Britain, which is why we don’t make maps of Northern Ireland.

British Isles

This is purely a geographical term – it refers to the islands of Great Britain and Ireland – including the Republic of Ireland – and the 5000 or so smaller islands scattered around our coasts. Remember this only refers to geography, not nationality, and while the Republic of Ireland is part of the British Isles, its people are not British – a very important distinction.