20.8% of Gen Z identify as LGBTQ+

[jdcyl]

Sexuality and gender identity are two different things.

‘Race’ is even more different.     

You cannot possibly be claiming that separating and classifying into different categories somehow justifies legal rights, freedoms, and social acceptance and respect being allowed to some groups, but denied to others.  Your hair splitting is such weak sauce.

[MintyRox]

Point being that just because somebody says something that we automatically go along with it.

---

No again not transphobic, logical, as I said there is procedure to transitioning not just wake up and say it and then go in with youth life and everybody accepts it.

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I posted a trans actor in the old board a few times and unfortunately it was deleted due to transphobic comments, I’ve also marched in nyc for trans rights, but hey if you want to sit behind a keyboard and insult somebody coz they don’t go along with your narrative, knock yourself out.

You've not actually read anything that has been posted by other people in this thread have you? Except the bits you skimmed that you felt bolstered your insane logic.

1: "Just because someone says something we go along with it..." this is the actual fucking point of the discussion. Self identification, i.e. I say what I am, you accept me for who I am. Crack open a book mate.

2: "There is a procedure to transitioning not just wake up and say it..." See point 1, you goon.

3: "I posted a trans actor in the old board..." So you find a particular trans man hot enough to maybe wank over, but don't respect their agency enough to accept when they tell you how they identify as a human being and what? You want a medal?

---

Admit to yourself, if not to anyone else, that you have an issue with trans people. It's your issue, and yours alone. In this discussion I will no longer entertain your public brain farts with a response, I hope everyone else who disagrees with you on this subject, in this thread, does the same.

Go stalk and pester MaddieRules in a football post elsewhere please RyCamp.

[RyCamp88]

Are you able to have a conversation without insults ?

[ladsnet]

Like Brexiters/Remainers, it seems that the anti-trans mob are so entrenched (brainwashed?) in their ideas that theres little point in trying to debate the topic.
Facts and genuine questions are just ignored so the same old rhetoric one-liners can be reposted over and over.

[cochineal]

No it was a fairly depressingly predictable direction of travel from the start.
The irony being a lot of it coming from someone who comes from a country with self id since 2015. I must have missed the all trans Irish sports teams and the complete erasure of any cis-gendered individuals that has happened in those 8 years. Or whatever else society ending armageddon that this brought about.
To some people trans people are nothing but an issue. Tory MP 30p Lee is on record as saying that the only way the Tories can win the next election is on the trans issue. I feel sick in my stomach that he may be right.
I am tempted to start another thread for trans news and discussion because I'm interested but not in the same old why are trans people problematic posts that keep appearing. If those people need to have those discussions then have at it but somewhere else cause it's fucking tiring having to firefight all the time. It must be absolutely exhausting having to fight so hard for your right to exist.
It honestly just deepens my empathy for what trans people have to go through.

[MintyRox]

Indeed cochineal. I knew from the outset that there would be dissenters when starting this thread, but nevertheless I have still been thoroughly gladdened by the number of positive and supportive responses it has also received. It's important we focus on the positive feedback and not the negative.

You can't argue that the sky is blue with someone who has always existed in in greyscale, they don't understand blue. Even when you give them colour, they still see grey. The world will continue to evolve around them in glorious technicolour until perhaps, one day, they may suddenly be enlightened and actually see the blue before their eyes. But it's down to them to open their minds and register the truth before them.

Like you, I am emboldened in my empathy for trans people by these misguided attempts to deny their truth.

[ladsnet]

At least all the hate doesn't lead to trans kids being murdered whilst out in the local park.




Oh.

[Jwb52z]

Cochineal, the word "assignation" basically is another way to say that a couple of lovers are having a secret meeting.

[John]

Disagree that transmen are men and that transwomen are women an opinion that you and others can either agree with or disagree with don't want violence inflicted on them either.

[MintyRox]

Disagree that transmen are men and that transwomen are women an opinion that you and others can either agree with or disagree with don't want violence inflicted on them either.

Thanks for your input John, not a huge surprise really.  I respectfully disagree on your first point and wholeheartedly agree on the second.  See, we can sometimes find some common ground (at least a little, it's a start).

Moving on to trans women in sports, I think this is a really interesting if somewhat complex situation and agree with previous comments that it is not fair for cisgender women to compete against trans women in sports that involve strength and stamina.  Trans women who have undergone male puberty will undoubtedly have an advantage over cis women due to stronger bones, greater muscle mass and a larger lung capacity - that isn't the case though for the small number of trans women who transition before male puberty.  

Which leads to an entirely different conversation about whether we should allow pre-pubescent children with gender dysphoria to take puberty blockers to pause the physical changes of puberty, such as breast development or facial hair and may be taken as a way to defer those changes.  Once the person reaches an age where they are mentally mature enough to decide if they wish to continue to transition, they can do so without the additional trauma of having developed certain physical characteristics of their birth sex allowing for easier transition.  Trans women who have done this would not have any physical unfair advantage over their cis female colleagues in sport.

Fair competition is why separate women’s sports were created. Competitive sport is ultimately a physical test in which post-puberty males possess significant advantages.  Performance advantages (including musculoskeletal features and lung capacity) persist even after transgender women suppress testosterone levels or surgically change their bodies so of course they would have a physical advantage over cis women and it would be unfair for them to compete at the same level.

One potential solution could be for all people who identify as female to be invited to try out for women’s sports teams, with the one caveat being competition.  The vast majority of team experience revolves around such things as practice, meetings, team travel, social activities etc, and there's no reason why this environment shouldn't include all who identify as female.  Meanwhile, trans women who transitioned before male puberty would not have a physical advantage and could be allowed to compete on women’s teams without any restrictions. 

However, in individual sports, trans women who have gone through male puberty could be allowed to practice, travel, and socialise with women’s teams if they want to, but they could be scored separately in a trans category.  This would be similar to how there are different categories for lightweight rowers, different weight classes of boxers, athletes with disabilities and athletes in different age groups. This would seem to be the fairest solution in my opinion, maintaining inclusion for trans athletes whilst also recognising the importance of fairness of competition for women's sports as a whole.

[jumbler]

At least all the hate doesn't lead to trans kids being murdered whilst out in the local park.

It’s notable that trans rights activists have focused heavily on the fact the victim had to be registered as dead under their birth gender.

But that is factually and legally correct. Being under 18, they could not legally consent to changing gender, in fact their parents would have the final word about that.

Are trans rights people so blinkered that they expect the legal process to be sidestepped and an illegal death certificate (showing preferred gender) issued??

At the very least, the people who agreed to issue an illegal certificate would be committing disciplinary offences. And if the illegal certificate was ever issued, it would be annulled and reissued showing the birth gender anyway.

---

At least part of the debate in Scotland is about these issues. It’s different in Scotland, because the age of majority is 16 for many things, but still 18 for others.

[Parsifal]

Which leads to an entirely different conversation about whether we should allow pre-pubescent children with gender dysphoria to take puberty blockers to pause the physical changes of puberty, such as breast development or facial hair and may be taken as a way to defer those changes.  Once the person reaches an age where they are mentally mature enough to decide if they wish to continue to transition, they can do so without the additional trauma of having developed certain physical characteristics of their birth sex allowing for easier transition.  Trans women who have done this would not have any physical unfair advantage over their cis female colleagues in sport.

How does it work if such person does not wish to continue to transition?  Are the puberty blockers, etc. reversible (i.e. can puberty then proceed normally)?

[jdcyl]

At least all the hate doesn't lead to trans kids being murdered whilst out in the local park.

It’s notable that trans rights activists have focused heavily on the fact the victim had to be registered as dead under their birth gender.

But that is factually and legally correct. Being under 18, they could not legally consent to changing gender, in fact their parents would have the final word about that.

Are trans rights people so blinkered that they expect the legal process to be sidestepped and an illegal death certificate (showing preferred gender) issued??

At the very least, the people who agreed to issue an illegal certificate would be committing disciplinary offences. And if the illegal certificate was ever issued, it would be annulled and reissued showing the birth gender anyway.

---

At least part of the debate in Scotland is about these issues. It’s different in Scotland, because the age of majority is 16 for many things, but still 18 for others.

You can’t fathom why?

Gay marriage hasn’t been legal for very long.  Before that (easily within our experience and memory) when a gay man in hospital needed medical decisions to be made on his behalf by next-of-kin, his gay partner had no legal standing to speak.  Never mind that the partner probably knew the patient best and had the patient’s interests closest to his heart, the law said the partner had no standing in the matter.

Were you equally outraged that gays then identified the issue as abominable and yelled and screamed in protest?  Going by your attitude about how the transgendered should be behaving, gays back then should have just gone along, because that’s what was legal.

Trans people have the same rights as gay men, or anyone else, to fight against laws, rules and conventions that insult their dignity as persons.  More power to them!

[RyCamp88]

Which leads to an entirely different conversation about whether we should allow pre-pubescent children with gender dysphoria to take puberty blockers to pause the physical changes of puberty, such as breast development or facial hair and may be taken as a way to defer those changes.  Once the person reaches an age where they are mentally mature enough to decide if they wish to continue to transition, they can do so without the additional trauma of having developed certain physical characteristics of their birth sex allowing for easier transition.  Trans women who have done this would not have any physical unfair advantage over their cis female colleagues in sport.

How does it work if such person does not wish to continue to transition?  Are the puberty blockers, etc. reversible (i.e. can puberty then proceed normally)?

Don’t waste your time. Its the sunshine and rainbows way with them, can’t see things logically.

[cochineal]

No you're right RyCamp88 I always go to websites with men shagging in the banners for my best medical advice. It's just where all the best ScIEnCe ing occurs.
It's funny how unwilling people can be to accept people self identifying their gender but their medical expertise, bring all that amazing logic to mine ears Doctor.

[RyCamp88]

So does a person not need to go through a doctor and a therapist to transition?

[MintyRox]

Which leads to an entirely different conversation about whether we should allow pre-pubescent children with gender dysphoria to take puberty blockers to pause the physical changes of puberty, such as breast development or facial hair and may be taken as a way to defer those changes.  Once the person reaches an age where they are mentally mature enough to decide if they wish to continue to transition, they can do so without the additional trauma of having developed certain physical characteristics of their birth sex allowing for easier transition.  Trans women who have done this would not have any physical unfair advantage over their cis female colleagues in sport.

How does it work if such person does not wish to continue to transition?  Are the puberty blockers, etc. reversible (i.e. can puberty then proceed normally)?

Yes, once they cease to take puberty blockers their hormonal development will continue and their bodies will carry on developing in their characterised sex.  Which is why PB are seen as a positive way of supporting young people with gender dysphoria to consider their circumstances and then decide how they feel when they are more mentally mature.  The benefits are twofold in that they don't develop unwanted bodily characteristics should they choose to continue with their transition, while also allowing them the time and opportunity to consider their circumstances and proceed accordingly once they are mature enough to decide.

However, in the interest of presenting all the arguments it is important to note that the long term impacts of pausing sexual maturity with puberty blockers is still largely unknown.  It is probable that there are no long term consequences as they have been in use since the early 90s with no historical data to confirm any adverse effects that I am aware of.

[Parsifal]

So the clinical data so far suggests that if a male, say, after taking puberty blockers then decides to not proceed to female and stops the treatments, his body, genitals, etc. will then continue its full development as a male with normal male sexual abilities. Yes? Is there a time limit after which that is no longer possible?

By example, if a 10-y/o male began transition treatments, including PBs, in 1995 she would be 37-38 y/o today. Is it too late to change his/her mind? (For a later age there would be no data today)

I understand that a lot is still largely unknown re long term effects.

[jumbler]

Well, up to a point. If someone decides to have reassignment surgery, then it all becomes moot.

Especially if that person changes their mind, and “transitions back”. That happens quite a bit too.

All of which strongly goes against the precautionary principle, which has been accepted practice in many areas of life for the last 30-40 years. That it is better to do nothing that causes irreversible, or long-term harm, at least until all the facts are known.

It all comes down to whether someone’s belief that they are “the wrong gender” is an objective, evidence-based one. I doubt you can make an evidence-based assessment on whether gender reassignment can be supported, as it would always be down to the patient’s wishes and beliefs.

That points to an existential crisis. Wouldn’t counselling or mental health support be more appropriate??

[MintyRox]

So the clinical data so far suggests that if a male, say, after taking puberty blockers then decides to not proceed to female and stops the treatments, his body, genitals, etc. will then continue its full development as a male with normal male sexual abilities.  Yes?  Is there a time limit after which that is no longer possible?

By example, if a 10-y/o male began transition treatments, including PBs, in 1995 she would be 37-38 y/o today.  Is it too late to change his/her mind?  (For a later age there would be no data today)

I understand that a lot is still largely unknown re long term effects.

Yes, if they stop taking puberty blockers they continue to develop 'normally'. 

I am not a medical professional but as I understand the process, a child of 10 could take PBs to halt their puberty until they were of an age where they could legally and maturely decide for themselves if they wish to proceed transitioning, most likely 16-18.  At that point they would either cease PBs and continue to develop in their assigned sex or begin hormone therapy to continue the process of transition to their preferred gender.  I believe hormone therapy is a lifelong choice to maintain the characteristics of a person's chosen gender.

PBs are only used for the period when a child would normally undergo hormonal puberty and are used to extend the period of time available to a young person to allow them space to mature psychologically and decide for themselves at a more mature age if they wish to proceed with their transition.

---

Well, up to a point. If someone decides to have reassignment surgery, then it all becomes moot.

Especially if that person changes their mind, and “transitions back”. That happens quite a bit too.

All of which strongly goes against the precautionary principle, which has been accepted practice in many areas of life for the last 30-40 years. That it is better to do nothing that causes irreversible, or long-term harm, at least until all the facts are known.

It all comes down to whether someone’s belief that they are “the wrong gender” is an objective, evidence-based one. I doubt you can make an evidence-based assessment on whether gender reassignment can be supported, as it would always be down to the patient’s wishes and beliefs.

That points to an existential crisis. Wouldn’t counselling or mental health support be more appropriate??

I'm just going to quote Stonewall for you here:

Do you need to have gender reassignment surgery (a 'sex change operation') to be trans?

You do not need to have had any surgery or medical intervention to be trans. A lot of media coverage is focused on trans people’s body parts and surgical procedures, which is invasive and dehumanising.

For some trans people, having surgery to relieve dysphoria or create gender euphoria is an important part of their transition. Getting access to surgery has become increasingly difficult in recent years, with NHS waiting lists growing longer and Covid-19 compounding the existing delays. More investment is desperately needed so that trans people can get the procedures they need. Our TRANSforming Futures: Healthcare report details the experiences of trans people across the UK, and their experiences with accessing healthcare.

For other trans people, surgery isn’t something they want or need to feel happy with their body. It’s the same with hormones, like testosterone and oestrogen treatments. It’s important to remember that being trans isn’t about having a particular appearance or particular body parts. It’s something that’s absolutely core to a trans person’s identity and doesn’t alter – whatever their outward appearance might be.

Transition means different things for each person: there is no one single ‘gender reassignment operation’ and no end goal to transition beyond what the individual wants.

And, frankly, it’s no one else’s business what kind of treatment a trans person has or doesn’t have. If you wouldn’t ask a cisgender person what’s under their clothes, why would it be appropriate to ask a trans person?

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/the-truth-a...assignment