20.8% of Gen Z identify as LGBTQ+

[RyCamp88]

No maturity is being able to form one’s own opinion without having to go along with everything and anything coz it’s what we are supposed to do these days, agree with everything and say nothing and if you do your a big bad wolf. Trans people deserve rights nobody is saying that but these days as I said anybody can say they are and we have to accept it and go along with, therefore anybody can walk into somewhere and say oh no it’s ok I’m trans.

---

What’s the stipulations for being trans, last I checked you had to go see doctors and such and go through surgery, so that’s my point, is somebody saying they are acceptable to be allowed into a female environment?

[Ollie2UK]

It's dispiriting to see such intolerance in this thread towards trans people and their rights.

Statistically, trans people are far more likely to be the victims of violent and/or sexual assault than the perpetrators of it. The portrayal of them as aggressors and predators is inaccurate and damaging, but sadly not surprising. The mainstream media used to say exactly the same things about us homosexuals once upon a time.

[ladsnet]

Nothing in this thread surprises me. Just the usual stuff.

If 30 depraved men across the UK wandered into womens toilets in a week and tried to molest a woman in there, you'd be lucky if 1 of them got reported in their local paper.

If 1 trans woman or man pretending to be a trans woman did it, it would be on the front page of the Mail and in constant rantdown on GBNews.

[cochineal]

Thanks MintyRox, I can't quote cause it's fucked on mobile. As I feared though this thread is going to be a lot of firefighting against transphobia pedaled out by the national press in this country. Trans people men, women and non-binary are struggling against 300 articles a year written against them in The Times. These Internet debates just provide avenues to trot these out again and again.

For reference there are less than 200 trans prisoners male, female & NB in England and Wales and less than 20 in Scotland. An increase of 2 trans prisoners in Scotland could lead to an absolutely accurate and completely misleading article that the number of prisoners claiming they are trans in Scotland has increased by 10%. Entirely true but entirely exaggerating any sense of scale or proportion. That's more articles written against trans people by 1 newspaper than the total number of trans prisoners in Britain.

Also why has no one pointed out that if the prison service is incapable of keeping inmates, regardless of their presence of a y chromosome, safe from assult and abuse, then the prison service is a bigger failing in society than a 16 year old trans boy or girl messing about with gender roles. And I absolutely dread the day we all have to carry round our birth certificate or show what's going on in our underwear before we're permitted to have a piss in public. Or we can have a nice facial recognition to classify you as femme or masc looking and permit you entrance based on that. It'd be an absolutely ridiculous situation to arrive in because some people couldn't find the common decency to use someone's preferred pronouns and needed some form of proof thar they would be accurate to a genetic scale that you need a fucking scanning electron microscope to see.

[RyCamp88]

So again I ask coz nobody has given an answer, what makes a trans person trans, if I woke up tomorrow and said I’m trans or non binary is that accepted and then I can go into women only environment ? It’s not about portraying anybody as anything or taking away their rights, Should i as a gay man be allowed into women only environments, of course not coz I am a man, so does somebody saying they are a woman make them a women or should they have transitioned before they are accepted as one ?

[ladsnet]

I'm curious.

What percentage of trans women do you think are just perverted male sex attackers ?

A high percentage?
If this is true then I guess you have a point about not letting them in the womens changing rooms in BHS.

Or an extremely low percentage?
If this is true then, possibly?, about the same number (or... maybe even LESS!?!?!) than the number of pervert men NOT pretending to be trans women, who wander into the womens changing rooms in BHS ??

[cochineal]

The best physicists in the world can't give you a fully accurate or agreed answer to how electricity works either but that doesn't stop you being able to charge your phone. I don't think you're going to find enlightenment at close to midnight on this website. Maybe just don't stress about it too much and it'll just sort of work out. And there might even be less hostility towards a group of people who are predominantly just trying to get on with living their lives without people constantly assuming that they are lying, murderous, sex offenders.

[MintyRox]

A trans person is someone whose gender identity does not conform with their assigned sex from birth.

Gender identity is your internal knowledge of your gender – for example, your knowledge that you’re a man, a woman, or another gender. Gender expression is how a person presents their gender on the outside.  That might include behaviour, clothing, hairstyle, voice or body characteristics. Everyone has a gender identity, including cisgender – or non-transgender – people. If someone’s gender identity matches the gender they were assigned at birth, then they are cisgender, or “cis" for short. If not, they are transgender.

It's no giant intellectual leap for a homosexual person to understand that one can feel inside and know wholeheartedly that they are a certain way, which doesn't appear to match that of what wider society expects as 'normal'.  Gay people also can surely recognise the concept that even though non-gay people tell them they are wrong, they still know inside themselves how they feel about their own feelings.  It's not that radically different for trans people, in that they feel a certain way about their own feelings, emotions and identities, but are told by some people they are wrong and in some way lying about how they identify.

It would seem as though you are getting hung up on a couple of different things RyCamp. 

1. The the difference between sex and gender:  sex refers to a person’s physical characteristics at birth (ie. genitals and chromosomes) while gender encompasses a person’s identities, expressions, and societal roles (how they identify and feel within themselves).

and

2.  Self identification:  the concept that a person's legal sex or gender should be determined by their gender identity without any medical requirements.

Admittedly, self ID has become a somewhat thorny subject to some for a myriad of different reasons, but it is really just about allowing a person to say and be who they are and be recognised as such, without the need to spend several years within a legal framework waiting to be acknowledged and legally recognised as the person they identify as.

Is it possible that a predatory cis man could 'self identify' as a trans woman in order to gain access to female spaces?  Technically yes, but for the most part, no this does not happen.  Sexually abusive males aren't really in the habit of pretending to be trans women in order to commit their crimes, regardless of whether a handful of people assigned male at birth who have committed sexual assault then go on to transition.  These are very much outliers and not representative of trans people as a community.

I realise there is not really any point trying to get these points across to those who aren't really interested in learning more and are simply closed to the idea of transness in general, but here I am trying to explain it for you anyway.  For those who would like to know more and open their minds to this, I recommend you read the Stonewall Trans Report linked below.  Or check out the Stop Hate UK site also linked below.

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/system/file..._final.pdf

https://www.stophateuk.org/about-hate-cr...nder-hate/

This is all I can do to enlighten you - you need to do the rest yourself.

[RyCamp88]

Again did I mention murder or sex offenders, I said just because somebody says they are a women doesn’t mean they should be allowed in a woman only area. But twist it to suit the narrative I guess.

[cochineal]

Thanks MintyRox, that was a really thoughtful, detailed reply you explained really well.
I don't think you'll ever be able to argue with someone who thinks people should be segregated just cause. Fuck knows why and less of a shit I couldn't give, Im not chasing that rabbit down the hole. Night x

[RyCamp88]

It’s not segregation, it’s science. People go to doctors and therapists when transitioning, but it seems these days that you don’t need that anymore and simply saying is good enough, can see some people aren’t able to have a logical conversation. Virtue signal between yourselves. Done.

[Parsifal]

A trans person is someone whose gender identity does not conform with their assigned sex from birth.

The one issue that I have with the whole narrative about transsexuals is the prevalent use of the phrase "assigned sex from/at birth".

A person's sex is not "assigned" at birth.  If it's assigned at all then it's assigned in the womb already.  When a baby is born the doctors/nurses look between the baby's legs and say "It's a boy/girl!).  No decisions (i.e. assignations) are made.

In fact, couples often know well before the baby is born what it's sex will be.

Just one of my pet peeves about how words and phrases are twisted or misused to suit an end.  There are others.

Sex is not assigned at birth.
People should stop saying that.

[Jwb52z]

Oh, Parsifal, but it IS assigned. It's put all over your medical paperwork from the time you are born and with it comes all the usual stereotypically imposed gender roles and preconceived ideas for each gender. That legal paperwork assigns that sex to you short of you legally changing it later.

[jdcyl]

A trans person is someone whose gender identity does not conform with their assigned sex from birth.

The one issue that I have with the whole narrative about transsexuals is the prevalent use of the phrase "assigned sex from/at birth".

A person's sex is not "assigned" at birth.  If it's assigned at all then it's assigned in the womb already.  When a baby is born the doctors/nurses look between the baby's legs and say "It's a boy/girl!).  No decisions (i.e. assignations) are made.

In fact, couples often know well before the baby is born what it's sex will be.

Just one of my pet peeves about how words and phrases are twisted or misused to suit an end.  There are others.

Sex is not assigned at birth.
People should stop saying that.

The phrase you object to refers to what is written on the birth certificate.         What is on the birth certificate is literally assigned at birth, so your objection about the term’s inaccuracy could not be more wrong.  The sex may be known even when the fetus is still developing in the womb, but of course the birth certificate isn’t issued until live birth.

The birth certificate figures in such discussions, because it is the first official piece of ID that attaches to a person, recognized by the state for legal purposes.

[RyCamp88]

Oh, Parsifal, but it IS assigned. It's put all over your medical paperwork from the time you are born and with it comes all the usual stereotypically imposed gender roles and preconceived ideas for each gender. That legal paperwork assigns that sex to you short of you legally changing it later.

I lied not done, so we don’t give out birth certificates anymore ?

[Ollie2UK]

It’s not segregation, it’s science. People go to doctors and therapists when transitioning, but it seems these days that you don’t need that anymore and simply saying is good enough, can see some people aren’t able to have a logical conversation. Virtue signal between yourselves. Done.

Maybe they don't need to see a doctor or therapist because they're not ill? Wanting to change your assigned gender isn't a disease and it doesn't have to involve surgery. Some people just want to live as the opposite sex without having to undergo medical interventions that they feel aren't necessary.

Why can't people just be honest and admit they have a problem with non-binary or transgender people rather than hide behind all this nonsense about abolishing birth certificates or which bathroom they use?

[RyCamp88]

Because Ollie that’s not how the real world works.

[ladsnet]

No come on...

If you're saying its not about murders or sexual assaults... why would women born as women, be bothered about trans women being in the same changing rooms as them?

[RyCamp88]

No come on...

If you're saying its not about murders or sexual assaults... why would women born as women, be bothered about trans women being in the same changing rooms as them?

That’s for women to answer. My point this whole time which folk have twisted is that there is no produce to transitioning anymore, you can simply say it and that’s it, come on I can’t be the only one who honestly thinks these stats don’t add up, this past decades there’s been that many new labels created it’s just eye rollingly stupid and more and more young people are on YouTube or Facebook and they see all this going on and they see it as the in thing coz people they follow say one thing one day and then the next they are something else, that’s why we need procedures because it’s there to safe guard them, because transitioning isn’t some fairytale thing, it comes with a lot of physical and mental difficulties.

[ladsnet]

So to summarise..

"Trans-women shouldn't be allowed in women only spaces."

Why not?

"Thats not for me to answer"

Fair play. You win that argument. Well done.