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Keir Starmer
what do we think?
#21
I have to say Bangle that you put your points across really clearly here and you get what the national tone is. I have no idea what Starmer represents but when you go down the identity politics route like labour have, it does not appeal to staunch labour voters. I have no idea what his values are and for a potential PM, you really need to know these. The more left he appears to be, the less chance of getting into Number 10 he has.
It saddens me that there is no credible opposition to the Conservatives and we are very soon becoming a one party country.
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#22
Reading whats going on behind the scenes at Labour now and it sounds exactly the same as under Corbyn. The Leader has a small team of 'advisors' who basically dictate party direction and when it all goes wrong blame other people.

We could be heading for Andy Burnham 2024
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#23
I can't think of a single time Starmer or any of his team have talked about identity politics. In fact, I'd say they go out of their way to stay clear of such things,

The "war on Woke" is being stoked by the usual suspects in the media & those dodgepots like Fox & his cronies. I honestly don't think its an issue most voters particularly care about one way or the other.

Surely the fact that Labour appear to have no policies under Starmer's leadership is a bigger issue? Labour went into these elections without a single idea to put across - how is that electable? It's interesting that the party did well in Wales, where the local leadership issued their own manifesto. In fact Labour's best results (Mayoral elections in Manchester, Liverpool, West of England) have come where there is strong local organisation putting across a consistent message. The central leadership would be wise to take note of that.
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#24
I'd agree with that.

All I've seen on social media the past few days is Corbyns army and the unions trying to drag us back to the 2019 manifesto.

They're in a proper mess.
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#25
(08-05-2021, 11:28 PM)Ollie2UK Wrote: I can't think of a single time Starmer or any of his team have talked about identity politics. In fact, I'd say they go out of their way to stay clear of such things,

The "war on Woke" is being stoked by the usual suspects in the media & those dodgepots like Fox & his cronies. I honestly don't think its an issue most voters particularly care about one way or the other.

Surely the fact that Labour appear to have no policies under Starmer's leadership is a bigger issue? Labour went into these elections without a single idea to put across - how is that electable? It's interesting that the party did well in Wales, where the local leadership issued their own manifesto. In fact Labour's best results (Mayoral elections in Manchester, Liverpool, West of England) have come where there is strong local organisation putting across a consistent message. The central leadership would be wise to take note of that.

They may not say it, but according to their former base, that's Labour's priority. It doesn't matter what they say or don't say (although the lack of clarity is also a huge problem), just perception and that is the perception. I read somewhere that Labour is suffering a case of 'Long Corbyn', it pretty much sums it up for me. They needed to counter that, Sir Keir who kneels, was not the appropriate man for the job. Just take a look at the responses to pretty much any tweet Starmer puts out, I'd say they sum up the general mood and what I'm basing my supposition on.
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#26
You seem to be obsessed with Starmer taking the knee for BLM.

I'm not seeing anybody else going on about that. Not since a couple of days after he did it.
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#27
(09-05-2021, 01:23 PM)ladsnet Wrote: You seem to be obsessed with Starmer taking the knee for BLM.

I'm not seeing anybody else going on about that. Not since a couple of days after he did it.

Not obsessed at all, but he's quite literally refereed to as 'Sir Kneel Starmer' online. The fact that's the nickname allocated to him, and not in a respectful manner, speaks volumes to me.
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#28
Well I must admit I haven't seen him called that online and a quick google only brings up stuff from last June.
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#29
(09-05-2021, 02:41 PM)ladsnet Wrote: Well I must admit I haven't seen him called that online and a quick google only brings up stuff from last June.

https://twitter.com/search?q=kneel%20sta...yped_query  All results from the past week, yet it's been a year.

Current top story on Daily Mail, click 'best rated' in comments to see again references to his kneeling https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...l#comments


While I disagree with the tone of most of what I see in the mail, it's an insight in to how others perceive current events. If anyone thinks the kneeling thing isn't a very real current problem, these are among the voters who labour needs to appeal to and it comes up repeatedly. It doesn't matter what focus groups or we think, the voting public haven't gotten past Corbyn, or Keir kneeling, as seen in the polls.
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#30
I don't think there's a lot to be gleaned from political discourse on social media. Those who take the time to tweet almost obsessively about politics tend to be the outliers on both sides of the spectrum and see everything in very polarised terms. Sir Kneel Starmer has no traction beyond a few Britain First nutcases on Twitter who would never vote for Labour anyway.

I certainly don't think the way for Labour to get elected is to move to a black lives DON'T matter platform.

The idea that the party needs to appeal to a predominantly racist electorate just isn't true either. The country hasn't changed that much since 2017 when Corbyn performed well above expectations in a General Election. If you're looking for reasons why 2019 & now this set of elections went so badly for Labour, you need to look elsewhere.
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#31
Opposition parties don't win elections, governments lose them. In the end, Johnson will come unstuck.
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#32
He as a leader might come unstuck sooner, doesn’t mean the government will.

And if Labour are doing so badly, why are the government doing this??
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#33
The conservatives are here to stay for at least another two elections? Get used to it.
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#34
His botched reshuffle had made him look even weaker, I don’t see him lasting till the next election.
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#35
So, every time Labour lose an election, it’s like “we’ve got to listen to the activists” (i.e. swing to the left). But when you do that, like in 2017/19, they lose by a country mile.

Why isn’t anyone willing to accept that a centre-led leader is probably the best chance for government?? Too much an admission of failure for some??
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#36
(10-05-2021, 10:19 PM)jumbler Wrote: So, every time Labour lose an election, it’s like “we’ve got to listen to the activists” (i.e. swing to the left). But when you do that, like in 2017/19, they lose by a country mile.

Why isn’t anyone willing to accept that a centre-led leader is probably the best chance for government?? Too much an admission of failure for some??

And yet, loonly leftie Corbyn won 30 more seats in 2017 than the more moderate Milliband managed in 2015.

I never quite understand why so many people think all Labour needs to do is move to the centre to win. The Tories don't do that - they're far from the centre ground. The Lib Dems are centralist...they're doing ever so well aren't they?
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#37
(07-05-2021, 04:32 PM)ladsnet Wrote: Christ. Is that really how people think now ??

So the choice will be between an elitist right-wing party and a working-class right-wing party ?

I might apply for a Scottish passport

There are no right wing parties in British politics.

Labour are fucked because the white working class voters have twigged that the Labour Party holds them in contempt, and have decided to return the sentiment at the ballot box. 
The woke metropolitan wing of the labour party might be overrepresented here, but it is not enough to win elections in the real world. For as long as labour activists and MPs take the suggestion that they at least try to hide their contempt as a personal insult, they will struggle to convince said voters to come back. 
It doesn't help either that until just before he ran for leader, Sir Keir was encouraging people to make Corbyn PM. Corbyn's moral repugnancy is like a jacket of shit. It casts a lingering stench over all who embraced him, and they cannot just wash their hands of him.

(09-05-2021, 01:23 PM)ladsnet Wrote: You seem to be obsessed with Starmer taking the knee for BLM.

I'm not seeing anybody else going on about that. Not since a couple of days after he did it.

Talk to voters in places like the Black Country, they noticed.

(11-05-2021, 01:10 PM)Ollie2UK Wrote:
(10-05-2021, 10:19 PM)jumbler Wrote: So, every time Labour lose an election, it’s like “we’ve got to listen to the activists” (i.e. swing to the left). But when you do that, like in 2017/19, they lose by a country mile.

Why isn’t anyone willing to accept that a centre-led leader is probably the best chance for government?? Too much an admission of failure for some??

And yet, loonly leftie Corbyn won 30 more seats in 2017 than the more moderate Milliband managed in 2015.

I never quite understand why so many people think all Labour needs to do is move to the centre to win. The Tories don't do that - they're far from the centre ground. The Lib Dems are centralist...they're doing ever so well aren't they?

2017 is a poor guide for anything. There were so many unique circumstances that it doesn't really tell us anything. The tories are doing well because with labour engaged in navel gazing they have colonised the centre-left without fear of being outflanked to their right.
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#38
Had to register because grrr so much nonsense.
2017 is a poor guide for anything yet a roughly 30% attended predominantly local election at the arse end of a global pandemic is a bastion of normality?

Second Starmer took the knee in June 2020, opinion polling recorded on Wikipedia shows Labour making gains and starting to become neck and neck with the Tories after this (about the end of August) until Jan 2021 - when the vaccination program started to kick in. Undoubtedly a huge credit to our civil service and health service.

Thirdly of course the Tories are right wing. It may be slightly harder to see at the minute because of all the money they're having to pump into the economy. But they will actively distance themselves from anything more social democratic, like the free school meals fiasco, choosing instead to revert to form claiming food vouchers are used for drugs!? They are also socially more conservative than they have been since their 2010 return.

I'd say Johnson has 3 weaknesses - 1 he needs to pump a lot of money into projects to deal with the consequences of Brexit (internal borders etc) and to projects to hopefully generate wealth in his levelling up agenda. He's very likely to back more than one white elephant and waste public funds. 2 his aversion to social democracy and lack of support for those in need, who won't benefit from any state intervention job creation projects. 3 his personal greed.

Starmer seems ideal to counter these, which so far he's been pretty good at maximising. What he has lacked however is a clear vision of what Labour will offer, rather than just not Tory. When you are maximising being not Tory and then the Tories are on a vaccine bounce then you need to be more than just not them. On the other hand he might be a bit too on the nose and people might appreciate more of a character.

Incidentally I ended up voting Green, for the first time ever. My Labour councillor lost his seat to a Tory by less than 100 votes both the Greens and Lib Dems had a good increase. I felt bad at first until I realised the East of the town had actually elected a Green over the previous Tory.
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#39
(12-05-2021, 05:12 PM)cochineal Wrote: Had to register because grrr so much nonsense.

I do believe you're the first member ever to register for the discussion forums Wink Welcome Big Grin
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#40
Keir Starmer is riding the "not having to be prime minister during a global pandemic" wave that might make him electable to some but it doesn't to me. Boris catastrophically allowed travel into this country during the pandemic and karma will catch him in the end for that, but that still doesn't make Keir electable. Keir is a seemingly decent bloke, but he's rather forgettable and keen to be seen as the nice guy in all situations, which is a turn off for me. I'm actually a Labour voter too. I didn't vote Corbyn and never would, but I did vote Tony Blair and still would if he was prime minister today.
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