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We know the score, we have to switch and drive electric. There’s just a couple of problems first.

1: Most electric models cost £10k more than a petrol model. That’s simply unaffordable - even if I was to get a double promotion, I’d still need to borrow a year’s salary.

2: The practicalities - i.e. charging. I have no garage, just a parking place. And my home has a fucking big lawn in front of it, metres from the kerb. So I’d be stuck with only using public chargers.

3: Maybe not a day-to-day concern, but if maximum charge is around 250 miles, that’s not great if you want to go travelling. Or you may need to recharge every single night.

If it wasn’t for those points, sure, I’d go electric tomorrow.

But what do you guys think??
Are we going to save the planet for future generations or aren't we?
Use public transportation.  It's more Earth friendly.
(23-05-2021, 06:34 AM)Parsifal Wrote: [ -> ]Are we going to save the planet for future generations or aren't we?
Use public transportation.  It's more Earth friendly.

That’s all well and good, if you live in a metropolitan area, with reliable and frequent transport links. I live in a rural area, my workplace, supermarket, family etc... are not on a direct bus route. There is no train station in my small town, either. 

I also, cannot park my car outside my house so how would I charge it? I can’t work from home, but do use online food deliveries. I limit my travel to necessary journeys so people can do their part, without buying an electric car.

I’ve not researched the environmental impact, but unless that electricity used to power the vehicle is carbon neutral, how is it solving the problem?

I’d like to keep my current low emission petrol car, until it konks out, rather than being forced to buy an electric one. The manufacturing process for very new car that is built, has an impact too.
Ditto that. We’re forgetting that over the last 100 years or so, we’ve designed cities to be car-friendly. Or at least, indifferent to distance - assuming that workers will use transport of some sort to get around.

Added to which, you’ve got people who work at out-of-town locations. Warehouses, business parks, hospitals, miles from the nearest suburb. Quite a few of which have shift working, when public transport doesn’t run. And so on.

It’s facile to think there won’t be cars in the future. Not unless we place limits on how big cities and suburbs can be (too late already). Large cities are great for public transport. Regional cities, less so.

Cars allow you to give lifts, in principle. Shared Ubers might be the way forward, but only if you have the time.
(23-05-2021, 07:50 AM)HarveyBarnesFan Wrote: [ -> ]I’ve not researched the environmental impact, but unless that electricity used to power the vehicle is carbon neutral, how is it solving the problem?
That’s an important and fair point. As an individual you can ensure your own electricity supply is carbon neutral which can help mitigate the impact. And in due course the wider electricity grid will be carbon neutral (UK government is pushing for an agreement at the G7 to outlaw coal as an energy supply).

The biggest challenge is charging for those who don’t have off street parking. I can’t say I’ve seen any realistic proposal for this and until there is this will remain a significant blocker for the uptake of EV’s.

As for a couple of points from Jumbler, the cost will equalise to petrol/diesel cars in a few years. Partly as a result of the increase in EV’s being produced bringing down the cost of the batteries; partly because the forthcoming Euro 7 emission standards (for petrol/diesel) are said to be so stringent that the cost of these cars will increase.

Battery range will also increase. There are EV’s coming to the market this year with nearly 500 miles range - admittedly high end models but they will cascade to other cars in due course. And people’s behaviour will change from “filling up when required” to “charging little and often”.
In addition to where the energy to charge comes from, there is the environmental impact of producing these super batteries. I haven't looked in a while, but I've read Teslas pollute more than a gas car because of all the hazardous waste that goes into making them. Then there's what happens when those cars die. Batteries are often more hazardous than internal combustion engines if left in a landfill.

Parsi, unless all that public transportation is solar and wind powered, it's not saving the environment any time soon.

This whole argument is also somewhat invalidated since about seven people control the pollution levels of the world. Even hardcore environmentalists say you can drive your car as much as you want. The average person's emissions and waste production are nothing compared to those of a few sad industries that will absolutely not convert until we've exhausted all other options and it becomes less profitable for them.

I say this as a recycling and composting aficionado who feels a twinge of guilt for throwing a piece of paper in the trash when recycling is not nearby.
In theory - Yes
In practicality, at present - No

As you say in pt 2. Nowhere to realistically charge it at home at present.
It need technology to advance so that they can be fully charged in 5 minutes, to make petrol stations change to charging stations and to allow people who have to park on the street at home to quickly charge it then put the cables away.
(23-05-2021, 07:50 AM)HarveyBarnesFan Wrote: [ -> ]That’s all well and good, if you live in a metropolitan area, with reliable and frequent transport links. I live in a rural area, my workplace, supermarket, family etc... are not on a direct bus route. There is no train station in my small town, either. 
(23-05-2021, 08:17 AM)jumbler Wrote: [ -> ]Ditto that. We’re forgetting that over the last 100 years or so, we’ve designed cities to be car-friendly. Or at least, indifferent to distance - assuming that workers will use transport of some sort to get around.
(23-05-2021, 08:38 AM)Heinrich Wrote: [ -> ]Parsi, unless all that public transportation is solar and wind powered, it's not saving the environment any time soon.

My point is that as the world changes to pollution minimizing technologies we as inhabitants of the planet now need to change our own mindset away from ME ME ME to one that focuses on the sustainability of the planet going hundreds and thousands of years forward.  We have that responsibility.

As jumbler points out, over the last 100 years, not only cities but also suburbs and rural areas were designed to be car-friendly.  What needs to happen now is to reverse that process over time.  Don't assume the status quo going forward.  Transport links will become more available as demand for it increases.

If we're going to save the planet for the future then we have to start NOW, and that means sacrifices for all.  We've been living high for too long.

50 years from now when the planet is hotter and the weather is more violent we, our generation and those before us, will be blamed for it.
(23-05-2021, 03:08 PM)HParsifal Wrote: [ -> ]
(23-05-2021, 07:50 AM)HarveyBarnesFan Wrote: [ -> ]That’s all well and good, if you live in a metropolitan area, with reliable and frequent transport links. I live in a rural area, my workplace, supermarket, family etc... are not on a direct bus route. There is no train station in my small town, either. 
(23-05-2021, 08:17 AM)jumbler Wrote: [ -> ]Ditto that. We’re forgetting that over the last 100 years or so, we’ve designed cities to be car-friendly. Or at least, indifferent to distance - assuming that workers will use transport of some sort to get around.
(23-05-2021, 08:38 AM)Heinrich Wrote: [ -> ]Parsi, unless all that public transportation is solar and wind powered, it's not saving the environment any time soon.

My point is that as the world changes to pollution minimizing technologies we as inhabitants of the planet now need to change our own mindset away from ME ME ME to one that focuses on the sustainability of the planet going hundreds and thousands of years forward.  We have that responsibility.

As jumbler points out, over the last 100 years, not only cities but also suburbs and rural areas were designed to be car-friendly.  What needs to happen now is to reverse that process over time.  Don't assume the status quo going forward.  Transport links will become more available as demand for it increases.

If we're going to save the planet for the future then we have to start NOW, and that means sacrifices for all.  We've been living high for too long.

50 years from now when the planet is hotter and the weather is more violent we, our generation and those before us, will be blamed for it.

Yeah, it’s all about ME ME ME when I literally have no other option available other than to move 45 miles to a city with good transport infrastructure, if I want to stop using my low emission car. I’ll be sure to find a house from where I can charge an electric car, too.

I’m happy knowing I don’t use air travel, buy locally sourced produce as much as possible. I recycle everything that can be, I replace things when they are worn out, not because fashion or marketing dictates it’s time to.

I’m trying to do my best, unlike the millions of people buying throwaway fashion, new technology every time a new phone offers a slightly better camera, and taking multiple foreign holidays. 

It’s ok to preach, but don’t assume that I’m selfish, and that I don’t care.
I lease cars and was going to get an electric one, but the charging network here in the UK is nowhere as near as good in the US. I think in a few more years we'll probably play catch up, but for now, it's a no-go.
(23-05-2021, 05:27 PM)HarveyBarnesFan Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, it’s all about ME ME ME when I literally have no other option available other than to move 45 miles to a city with good transport infrastructure, if I want to stop using my low emission car. I’ll be sure to find a house from where I can charge an electric car, too.

It's about the mindset and how we look going forward.  Think large, not ME.  Of course we have to deal with the status quo and make do as best we can.  It's a mistake to throw forward-looking ideas out the window.  Rather they should be showing us the way to move forward, one step at a time.  If electric cars are not ideal for you today maybe they will be tomorrow or, better yet, some day in the future public transportation will be more practical for many more than today.  The point is that we all have to change.

(23-05-2021, 05:27 PM)HarveyBarnesFan Wrote: [ -> ]I’m happy knowing I don’t use air travel, buy locally sourced produce as much as possible. I recycle everything that can be, I replace things when they are worn out, not because fashion or marketing dictates it’s time to.

Approve

(23-05-2021, 05:27 PM)HarveyBarnesFan Wrote: [ -> ]I’m trying to do my best, unlike the millions of people buying throwaway fashion, new technology every time a new phone offers a slightly better camera, and taking multiple foreign holidays.

Approve

(23-05-2021, 05:27 PM)HarveyBarnesFan Wrote: [ -> ]It’s ok to preach, but don’t assume that I’m selfish, and that I don’t care.

Bow
I think if you live in a rural area and don't have the option of reliable public transport or the means to afford an electric car, that's fair enough.

The priority should be sorting out our congested, polluted cities. Better public transport is vital as is changing people's perceptions of it.

I'm lucky enough to work from home, but when I used to commute into the centre of Bristol every day, I took the bus. My journey lasted about 20 minutes and every day I'd look out of the window at nose-to-tail cars with 1 or 2 people in them, all heading into the centre along the same main route the bus takes - except the bus flies down the empty bus lane while the car drivers sit and fume for an hour or more. People I worked with used to turn up hot, angry and quite often late due to the traffic, problems getting into the car park etc. All of them could have caught the bus instead (got there quicker AND saved money on parking charges), but when I used to suggest that I'd get the standard response - 'I don't DO public transport'

Electric cars are going to be important in the long run, but the cost needs to come down, the technology needs to improve, and the charging points need to be in place. Fixing public transport could and should be a quick win until all that happens.

So, yeah, I'd definitely get an electric car in the future, but not yet.
Where I think we could reach immediate agreement is getting rural communities more connected. It's become a massive problem and I'm sure also furthers the cultural divides in a people. I'm a rural boy who moved to the city for work and gay things and it would be mutually beneficial to make rural areas easier to access and easier to escape, if need be. Could also help with shipping, who knows.
I like Emmanuel Macron's comment:
"Let's face it: There is no Planet B."
Approve
Are hybrid cars still not an option?
(23-05-2021, 06:34 AM)Parsifal Wrote: [ -> ]Are we going to save the planet for future generations or aren't we?
Use public transportation.  It's more Earth friendly.

The problem with public transportation, at least in the US, is that it won't ever be universal, so to speak, because land owners are never going to willingly sell their land that they are now using to make money through various farming practices.  Rural people almost never have access to public transportation.  Then, there's the fact that public transportation isn't set up for convenient travel for those who aren't able bodied, but that's a whole other problem.
(25-05-2021, 06:46 AM)Jwb52z Wrote: [ -> ]The problem with public transportation, at least in the US, is that it won't ever be universal, so to speak, because land owners are never going to willingly sell their land that they are now using to make money through various farming practices. 
In the UK the government can compulsory purchase land for projects including public transport (as they have done for HS2 and Crossrail). Not sure if this is possible in the US but, of course, depends on political will which I don’t think is there (at least not to this extent)? I know Biden is keen on expanding fast rail services but this seems to be about long journeys rather than short (though I guess does offset the use planes).

(25-05-2021, 06:40 AM)Kev Wrote: [ -> ]Are hybrid cars still not an option?
The problem with hybrids is that they are heavy as effectively have two engines meaning that the emissions can be higher than expected if you drive disproportionately using the petrol/diesel engine. A lot of company car drivers in the UK have taken them as they are tax efficient.


The UK government has announced some further investment in public charge points albeit they seem to be for motorways (so still word on how to improve home charging for those with no off street parking):

Quote:When it comes to public charging points for electric cars, the UK isn't doing too badly.

According to Zap-Map, there are nearly 24,000 chargers installed around the country. That's less than half the number available in the Netherlands, but not far short of what France and Germany have to offer. It's also more than double the number available in 2018.

But with the sale of new petrol and diesel cars to be banned from 2030, more infrastructure is needed, and Ofgem has acknowledged that fact.

Today's announcement is not a game changer, but rather a statement of intent. Some 1,800 ultra-fast chargers, capable of charging car batteries in minutes rather than hours, will be installed across the motorway network - as reassurance for electric vehicle drivers who want to embark on long journeys.

The £300m investment is, relatively speaking, a drop in the ocean. But it forms part of a much bigger £40bn investment programme for the energy network as a whole approved last year.

It's likely a much more significant portion of those funds will ultimately be allocated towards getting the country ready for electric vehicles.

Source: BBC News
(25-05-2021, 06:46 AM)Jwb52z Wrote: [ -> ]
(23-05-2021, 06:34 AM)Parsifal Wrote: [ -> ]Are we going to save the planet for future generations or aren't we?
Use public transportation.  It's more Earth friendly.

The problem with public transportation, at least in the US, is that it won't ever be universal, so to speak, because land owners are never going to willingly sell their land that they are now using to make money through various farming practices.  Rural people almost never have access to public transportation.  Then, there's the fact that public transportation isn't set up for convenient travel for those who aren't able bodied, but that's a whole other problem.

Exactly. It's easy for a New Yorker to say that, harder for a rural Minnesotan like me to do. Cars are a way of life in the country. We have driving classes in the curriculum, then permit and license tests in the summer. We even offer farm permits to kids at 14 because agrarian practices require it.

You absolutely cannot take a bus into town when transporting literal tons of grain. Not that buses even go on rural roads. Cabs do not exist out that far and I doubt Uber and the like run out there. If they do, there wouldn't even be enough of them.
Quote:In the UK the government can compulsory purchase land for projects including public transport (as they have done for HS2 and Crossrail). Not sure if this is possible in the US but, of course, depends on political will which I don’t think is there (at least not to this extent)?

We do have something like that here. It's called "eminent domain".
They've just been discussing electric cars on BBC R2 Jeremy Vine show.
Concerns were raised re: cables along the pavement as a hazard.
What's to stop someone unplugging your car & plugging in theirs instead? If was overnight charge you might not even notice surely?
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