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UK..

Communities Secretary Robert Jenrick is to rewrite planning regulations forcing public buildings to have separate male and female toilets instead of gender-neutral facilities, but is this change a step forward or back?

Lets have a heated debate!



Assuming we're not talking about urinals and forcing ladies to squat in them... then I don't see the issue ?!?!

But I'm not a 75 year old angry Tory voter.
[font=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol", Arial, "ヒラギノ角ゴ Pro W3", "Hiragino Kaku Gothic Pro", メイリオ, Meiryo, "MS Pゴシック", "MS PGothic"]?Communities Secretary @RobertJenrick is to rewrite planning regulations forcing public buildings to have separate male and female toilets instead of gender-neutral facilities, but is this change a step forward or back? [/font]
Does the Tory voter have separate bathrooms in their home?

I don't have a problem with it. Just make sure you wipe the lid and put it down.
I like pissing in urinals.  It's faster and you don't have to deal with the seat.  They take up less space than stalls and thus speed the lines for men.
To make it fair for women, women's restrooms should be larger with more stalls.

So separate male/female toilets are best when there's enough room to accommodate both. Approve
Are they posting guards to verify gender identities? That's all I care about on this issue. They shouldn't is what I'm saying.
I don't care who comes in and wants to peek at my willy while I'm pissing.
There should be something that prevents straight men from visiting the women's restrooms for their pervy fetishes.
(17-05-2021, 05:45 PM)Parsifal Wrote: [ -> ]There should be something that prevents straight men from visiting the women's restrooms for their pervy fetishes.
The move to gender-neutral bathrooms is the complete opposite of that, which is why it makes zero sense.

That, and the fact many trans people just aren’t interested in bottom surgery. They have a lot of psychological issues to deal with.
(17-05-2021, 05:50 PM)jumbler Wrote: [ -> ]The move to gender-neutral bathrooms is the complete opposite of that, which is why it makes zero sense.

I'm not following jumbler.  Are you saying that gender-neutral bathrooms make zero sense?
(17-05-2021, 05:50 PM)jumbler Wrote: [ -> ]
(17-05-2021, 05:45 PM)Parsifal Wrote: [ -> ]There should be something that prevents straight men from visiting the women's restrooms for their pervy fetishes.
The move to gender-neutral bathrooms is the complete opposite of that, which is why it makes zero sense.

That, and the fact many trans people just aren’t interested in bottom surgery. They have a lot of psychological issues to deal with.

And still so many fewer than you, you sad transphobic fuck.

As to Parsi's point, there are already laws against all of that. Unless we post cameras and guards in bathrooms (which would be even more exploitable!), until we can get mostly straight men (although sex criminals of all stripes exist), women and especially transwomen are less safe no matter the type of bathroom used.

There's also no guarantee any such guards and regular law enforcement will believe the victims or worse, be the perpetrators. I would venture to guess police officers, partners, and other figures of authority are responsible for more sexual assaults of women than transpeople.
Let me guess: Heinrich won't be punished for his outburst calling someone a "fuck".
(17-05-2021, 10:29 PM)JCarter Wrote: [ -> ]Let me guess: Heinrich won't be punished for his outburst calling someone a "fuck".

We probably won't be told.

On the old board he got lots of warnings and I had the impression that he was sometimes on the edge of being banned (because of so many warnings).
I don't know what his warning status is now.
Personal viewpoints apart, I genuinely don’t know why this particular issue matters so much to trans people. They appear to want to associate with members of their assumed gender, and feel that would be less at risk of assault, or less likely to be victimised or ridiculed - all whilst using the facilities.

I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment. If anything, there’s more call for them having access to separate facilities (make disabled share with non-binary/trans) something like that.

Changing pronouns to be more inclusive is one thing (you either agree with it, or you don’t). Trans people don’t want to accept some people feel confronted by them, and no matter how wrong that may be, allowing them to use preferred gender facilities isn't going to make the problem go away.

I’m not exactly thinking along the lines of the gay panic defence, but if you put someone in a position of harm, they’re likely to be hurt. That isn’t sensible. There are limits as to how much people will accept as individuals (even tolerant ones), even if their perspectives are (seen to be) wrong.
Just so I'm getting this... cos I've reread it a few times.

Are you saying trans people should use disabled toilets ???

(phones popcorn supplier)
Unisex toilets would add a level of protection to any individual who doesn't quite conform to gender norms, transvestites, behaviour perceived to belong to another gender etc

I also can't see the issue some people have with it. My local leisure centre has unisex changing and has had since it was renovated in the early 2000s. No issues or complaints.

I like to think I'm empathy driven. I can imagine a non binary person having to either use a single sex bathroom where they'll get treated as a pervert, or a single sex bathroom they risk being chased out of (actually whichever way they choose they could have these things happen).
(18-05-2021, 12:06 AM)ladsnet Wrote: [ -> ]Just so I'm getting this... cos I've reread it a few times.

Are you saying trans people should use disabled toilets ???
Not like that. Nor am I suggesting that trans people are automatically disabled (unless they already are).

Merely providing access - in percentage terms of the wider population. The numbers would be about the same. And being very familiar with bodily challenges, the environment would probably be much less confrontational.

I don’t see this as a negative, but entirely practical. Even if lots of people disagree with it.
(17-05-2021, 10:52 PM)Parsifal Wrote: [ -> ]
(17-05-2021, 10:29 PM)JCarter Wrote: [ -> ]Let me guess: Heinrich won't be punished for his outburst calling someone a "fuck".

We probably won't be told.

On the old board he got lots of warnings and I had the impression that he was sometimes on the edge of being banned (because of so many warnings).
I don't know what his warning status is now.
No, there's a way of knowing whether Heinrich has been disciplined or not. He hasn't been disciplined for that remark as was pretty obvious.
(18-05-2021, 12:07 AM)cochineal Wrote: [ -> ]I like to think I'm empathy driven.
To me, this is what the debate hinges on. I don’t believe trans people get this - to them, every right-minded person will always be empathetic, even-handed and rational. All of the time.

They don’t seem to believe being in enclosed spaces will make a difference.
(17-05-2021, 11:44 PM)jumbler Wrote: [ -> ]Personal viewpoints apart, I genuinely don’t know why this particular issue matters so much to trans people. They appear to want to associate with members of their assumed gender, and feel that would be less at risk of assault, or less likely to be victimised or ridiculed - all whilst using the facilities.

I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment. If anything, there’s more call for them having access to separate facilities (make disabled share with non-binary/trans) something like that.

Changing pronouns to be more inclusive is one thing (you either agree with it, or you don’t). Trans people don’t want to accept some people feel confronted by them, and no matter how wrong that may be, allowing them to use preferred gender facilities isn't going to make the problem go away.

I’m not exactly thinking along the lines of the gay panic defence, but if you put someone in a position of harm, they’re likely to be hurt. That isn’t sensible. There are limits as to how much people will accept as individuals (even tolerant ones), even if their perspectives are (seen to be) wrong.

"Putting someone in a position of harm" seems to indicate you know transpeople are victimized by people who agree with you and JCarter. They're only in a position of harm because of people like you.

Transpeople are far less a threat to any gender than cismen are to women. They should have access to the bathroom that corresponds to their gender identity, but unisex toilets do remove that issue completely. However, I can understand a need for separate gender bathrooms for numbers of stalls and such. Urinals are indeed better for those of us who stand to pee.

When you find me data that says cismen are overwhelmingly posing as transpeople to assault women I'll give you a listen. Mostly I'm guessing people who want to sexually assault others will simply skip the complicated step of cultivating a fake trans identity to do it. They'll instead use the old standbys of assaulting people whenever and wherever they can.
So why are we having this debate then?? And I wasn’t thinking of sexual assault, more physical assault. Violence and harassment is probably more of a risk in a public place.
(18-05-2021, 12:21 AM)jumbler Wrote: [ -> ]
(18-05-2021, 12:07 AM)cochineal Wrote: [ -> ]I like to think I'm empathy driven.
To me, this is what the debate hinges on. I don’t believe trans people get this - to them, every right-minded person will always be empathetic, even-handed and rational. All of the time.

They don’t seem to believe being in enclosed spaces will make a difference.

I don't understand what you're saying.
I'm not sure trans people are of one homogeneous thought but aside from that I would assume a lot of the worry from non binary and trans people comes from the exact opposite of people being empathetic.

Sorry but I really can't get a handle on not believing in enclosed spaces making a difference. I just don't understand sorry  Undecided
I’m sorry you feel that way - but there’s obviously a gap here where the two sides are not seeing eye to eye. In the wider community, I mean.

The bottom line is, it seems to go against the grain. When trans people are usually very guarded about who they are, their background, they want to be right out there when it comes to… you know what.

That is probably what people find confronting. For example, if young gay people still finding holding hands in public a biggie, surely trans people don’t want to put themselves in a position where they can be attacked?? Even if the risk is small.
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