famousmales

I came across a really interesting article today on The Guardian about a Gallup poll from 2022 in the US, surveying how different generations identify within the straight and LGBTQ+ spectrum.  Apparently 7.1% of the overall consensus identified as LGBTQ+, up from 3.1% in 2012.  In the Gen Z demographic (born between 1997-2003) that figure jumps to 20.8% identifying as LBGTQ+, a nearly two-fold increase from the 10.5% recorded in 2017.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre...y-as-lgbtq

It gave me hope that things are truly on the change for the better for us all and affirms my personal experience that things improve over time and society is now finally starting to accept us as just other members of the same varied tapestry of people in the world.  This is positive and hopeful stuff.

But then, there is still a current incessant focus in the media on Trans issues, designed to create drama and dissent, cause debate and sell newspapers.  This ranges from the recent proposals to reform Scotland's self ID laws, with the media's declaration they are 'controversial', followed up by an obsessive focus on a single Trans woman in the Scottish penal system who committed sexual assault before transitioning (certainly not a person indicative of the overall community yet still most likely singled out by the news to specifically reinforce certain stereotypes). And now we have the tragic murder of Brianna Ghey to contend with.  An innocent young trans girl senselessly stabbed to death in the middle of the day, with the police only now (after several days) acknowledging that the crime may be hate related.  

And I wonder, why is this still happening when things are improving in so many other ways?  Whilst support and acceptance for the LG and B portion of our community is stronger than ever, it seems that our Trans brothers and sisters are now primarily the ones under the spotlight and fighting for acceptance.  To circle back to my original point, the top comment in the Guardian post I mentioned is below - it made me grateful and sad as I read it, then it made me think as I reached their final point (highlighted by me).

Quote:I’m 65 and gay, my great nephew has just come out aged 15 and I’ve been pondering how different his life will be to mine. He won’t remember a time when same-sex marriage wasn’t a thing, when gay people couldn’t adopt or have kids, when they couldn’t join the forces or police or be diplomats or when stars of stage and screen weren’t out and proud, when Politicians weren’t Gay, He will take for granted the rights that I never dreamed I would see in my life time. Hopefully he won’t have to live through anything like the nightmare that was the AIDS epidemic watching as half his friends die while people said they deserved it and celebrated their deaths. He won’t ever have to suffer indignities such as going for a first mortgage only to have people brought from the back office to point and laugh at him and his partner. Hopefully he will never be attacked on the street or on public transport. I have such hope for him and all the young gay people and I look at the transgender community and think they are saying all the things about them that they said about me, we were a danger to the young, we shouldn't be allowed in changing rooms etc, etc and I wish them love and hope, if my life is a guide it does get better. Bless all of them and let them shine.

I realise this may be a thorny subject for some, I don't expect much engagement and am prepared for any disagreements that are thrown my way for opening this debate on a 'wank site'.  But I just wanted to say this out loud to fellow members of my 'community'.

Trans men are men and Trans women are women and they deserve our (and everyone's) love, respect and support!

(15-02-2023, 01:47 AM)MintyRox Wrote: [ -> ]Whilst support and acceptance for the LG and B portion of our community is stronger than ever, it seems that our Trans brothers and sisters are now primarily the ones under the spotlight and fighting for acceptance. 

I’m drawn again and again to the fact that trans people are said to make just ½% of the wider population.

And yet they seem to be occupying a growing, and widening part of public debate. As if the number of people coming out as trans was growing into the tens, and hundreds of thousands. And even, I believe, subverting LGB and queer politics, wrapping it around their finger, so that issues become trans-centred, and oriented.

Other than violence, and discrimination, what exactly do I, and other gay/bi cisgender people have in common with trans people?? Not a lot, frankly, in fact nothing at all.

It still remains a fact that trans people retain their genetic and chromosonal makeup from birth, and must be referred to a specialist of their birth gender until the ends of their lives. If you were born male, you cannot give birth; if you were born female, you cannot be a father.

But recent language from the health community, and even scientists now suggest that using cisgendered terms evokes prejudice, and ill-informed sentiments.

Whereas instead they tend towards distorting and disturbing conventional models of gender and sex, and will probably lead to some quite disturbing levels of gender dysphoria in the years to come (“is it OK to be cis”??). Imagine counselling troubled cis teens in the 2050s and 60s who feel unhappy that they’re not trans instead.

Quote:But I just wanted to say this out loud to fellow members of my 'community'. Trans men are men and Trans women are women and they deserve our (and everyone's) love, respect and support!

Tbh, I feel the debate has moved so far to the leftfield that trans people are seen as people of virtue, people of impeccable personal, and moral character, who are beyond reproach. Lionising them, and applauding them for being themselves.

I cannot understand why this is seen as necessary.

Quote:recent proposals to reform Scotland's self ID laws, with the media's declaration they are 'controversial', followed up by an obsessive focus on a single Trans woman in the Scottish penal system who committed sexual assault before transitioning (certainly not a person indicative of the overall community yet still most likely singled out by the news to specifically reinforce certain stereotypes)

On the contrary, it’s actually highlighting a genuine, and real concern - that people who (let’s not forget, there is no expectation that trans people ever complete reassignment), remain in their birth gender, commit sexual violence towards people of the opposite gender, and then say “oh, BTW, I’m trans female now. KThxBye”.

That really is not acceptable for people to take advantage of measures supposed to reduce discrimination of minorities, and then go on to invade safe spaces for people of the opposite gender (to their birth gender).

It’s hardly an isolated case either - Here, here, here, and here.

I really do have an issue with trans people being portrayed as people of virtue when they commit crimes like these.

It’s the they lot that do my head in. It’s the new in cool thing to do.

Quote:I’m drawn again and again to the fact that trans people are said to make just ½% of the wider population.

And yet they seem to be occupying a growing, and widening part of public debate. As if the number of people coming out as trans was growing into the tens, and hundreds of thousands. And even, I believe, subverting LGB and queer politics, wrapping it around their finger, so that issues become trans-centred, and oriented.

0.5% of the wider population is in the hundreds of thousands, the very link you used in your comment states that "results showing 262k people identify as gender different to sex at birth".  Just because a minority is a minority, doesn't mean that their rights should be less than the majority.  As gays we have argued this forever.

Trans issues take up a wider part of the debate nowadays because they are currently the ones experiencing the most discrimination within the LGBTQ spectrum.

Quote:It still remains a fact that trans people retain their genetic and chromosonal makeup from birth, and must be referred to a specialist of their birth gender until the ends of their lives. If you were born male, you cannot give birth; if you were born female, you cannot be a father.

This is an issue of gender versus sex - the two things are not the same. 

Quote:Whereas instead they tend towards distorting and disturbing conventional models of gender and sex, and will probably lead to some quite disturbing levels of gender dysphoria in the years to come (“is it OK to be cis”??). Imagine counselling troubled cis teens in the 2050s and 60s who feel unhappy that they’re not trans instead.

What a ridiculously absurd comment, which in truth mirrors the argument many homophobes have that teaching equality regarding sexuality will somehow lead to their children being indoctrinated into a gay lifestyle.

Quote:Tbh, I feel the debate has moved so far to the leftfield that trans people are seen as people of virtue, people of impeccable personal, and moral character, who are beyond reproach. Lionising them, and applauding them for being themselves.

Also a ridiculous statement.  Trans people aren't being lionised and certainly aren't claiming to be anything other than as ordinary as other people.  That's the point, they simply want to be accepted for who they are without being harassed and stigmatised for being 'other'.

Quote:On the contrary, it’s actually highlighting a genuine, and real concern - that people who (let’s not forget, there is no expectation that trans people ever complete reassignment), remain in their birth gender, commit sexual violence towards people of the opposite gender, and then say “oh, BTW, I’m trans female now. KThxBye”.

That really is not acceptable for people to take advantage of measures supposed to reduce discrimination of minorities, and then go on to invade safe spaces for people of the opposite gender (to their birth gender).

It’s hardly an isolated case either - Here, here, here, and here.

Ah, the JK Rowling manoeuvre - this is all just about women's safe spaces.  How is the experience of a trans woman being the victim of a rape or sexual assault really any less valid than a cis woman's?  They certainly aren't getting themselves raped simply to gain access to women's rape centres.  And the argument that people should use rest rooms or changing rooms matching the birth sex is also daft and would lead to circumstances where trans men were forced to use women's toilets; very often big muscular hirsute chaps as they can be.

A few examples does not indicate a trend in a population of hundreds of thousands of people.  In the same way that John-Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer and Stephen Port don't demonstrate that the majority of gay men are serial killers, a handful of violent sex offenders transitioning does not indicate that all trans people are violent sex offenders.  There are bad actors in all parts of society.

(15-02-2023, 04:07 PM)MintyRox Wrote: [ -> ]Ah, the JK Rowling manoeuvre - this is all just about women's safe spaces.  How is the experience of a trans woman being the victim of a rape or sexual assault really any less valid than a cis woman's?  They certainly aren't getting themselves raped simply to gain access to women's rape centres.  And the argument that people should use rest rooms or changing rooms matching the birth sex is also daft and would lead to circumstances where trans men were forced to use women's toilets; very often big muscular hirsute chaps as they can be.

A few examples does not indicate a trend in a population of hundreds of thousands of people.  In the same way that John-Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer and Stephen Port don't demonstrate that the majority of gay men are serial killers, a handful of violent sex offenders transitioning does not indicate that all trans people are violent sex offenders.  There are bad actors in all parts of society.

Here's the thing, women's safe spaces were created to make those with vaginas feel protected from those with penises. Plain and simple. I firmly believe trans women should be treated with dignity and respect, but not at the expense of women's rights and safety (perceived or otherwise). I don't believe it is transphobic to recognise this fact.

Additionally gay rights are not comparable to trans rights, because gay rights did not compromise the hard fought rights and inequalities of another demographic.

I agree it's important not to dissolve or dilute the rights and safety of another group in order to attain equality, but I thoroughly disagree that trans rights are in any way compromising the rights of cisgendered women.

I can also accept that in certain circumstances it may be unfair to expect cis women to accept trans women sharing particular spaces. The vast majority of trans people would no doubt also agree. The wider issue is that this one aspect of the debate is being used to derail the entire trans rights discussion, when in truth it is a footnote to the wider issues trans people face.

I can see I am going to be standing out alone on this hill. I had hoped that there would be at least some nuanced discussion and understanding, but clearly not.

You're not alone Minty.

I'm not even going to debate with the transphobes because there's no point.

To any trans, gender queer or non-binary people reading, you have all my love, respect and support. Your existence is valid and you have as much right to exist as any other person. And you absolutely belong under our big fabulous queer umbrella. Ignore the grumpy old daily mail readers who lack joy, appear to have internalised issues against queer people and suspect they bring the downfall of all that is good and holy with them.

I've been broadly supportive of trans rights but the absolutely devastating murder over the weekend properly shook me up and stirred me into being a lot more vocal in my support. She must have been terrified. A young woman who should have had her whole life ahead of her. Denied a lifetime of experiences.

There was a time in living memory of some people were being gay was a crime and it would have be an important aspect of the "gay debate" that you needed to be continually reminded that some gays are rapists, sex offenders and pedophiles. Spreaders of AIDS, a disease sent by a god to wipe us out. That without the biological mechanics that allow us to reproduce, we are a biological anomaly and have no place amongst decent, normal people. Thankfully we've moved on and people no longer think children or society in general needs protection from us (mostly and certainly not globally yet). 

The need for a gay debate is as necessary as a need for a trans debate. For clarity I don't think either are necessary. 

I can't even imagine in 2023 having to listen to a debate which says "I'm not supportive of sex offenders but I am supportive of gays (**as long as they're not too masculine or feminine acting in a way that misaligns with what their chromosomes say about whether they are capable of using a unisex toilet cubicle without sexually assulting someone)". It'd be absolutely fucking insane to think that the two are so explicitly linked as the press try to paint trans people and sex offenders as.

You represent such a small amount of the population that the amount of time and energy that has been spent to discredit your existence is absolutely absurd. I can only assure you that I watch with as much amusement as you probably do at commentators and journalists who sweat overexcitedly about your performance in a 50 metre dash or where you'll go to take a dump. I am confident though that the time will come when trans people are as accepted into society as the rest of the queer community. 

In the meantime, go out and enjoy your lives, make memories that don't involve worrying about what other people think or say about you. Or stay in, watch Netflix and browse the Internet. You do you, everyone else's prejudice is for them to deal with. There are some amazing groups and instagram accounts featuring trans joy and shining, hopefully, a bit of optimism on the future.

xoxox

(15-02-2023, 07:35 PM)cochineal Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not even going to debate with the transphobes because there's no point.

To any trans, gender queer or non-binary people reading, you have all my love, respect and support. Your existence is valid and you have as much right to exist as any other person. And you absolutely belong under our big fabulous queer umbrella. Ignore the grumpy old daily mail readers who lack joy, appear to have internalised issues against queer people and suspect they bring the downfall of all that is good and holy with them.

I've been broadly supportive of trans rights but the absolutely devastating murder over the weekend properly shook me up and stirred me into being a lot more vocal in my support. She must have been terrified. A young woman who should have had her whole life ahead of her. Denied a lifetime of experiences.

There was a time in living memory of some people were being gay was a crime and it would have be an important aspect of the "gay debate" that you needed to be continually reminded that some gays are rapists, sex offenders and pedophiles. Spreaders of AIDS, a disease sent by a god to wipe us out. That without the biological mechanics that allow us to reproduce, we are a biological anomaly and have no place amongst decent, normal people. Thankfully we've moved on and people no longer think children or society in general needs protection from us (mostly and certainly not globally yet). 

The need for a gay debate is as necessary as a need for a trans debate. For clarity I don't think either are necessary. 

I can't even imagine in 2023 having to listen to a debate which says "I'm not supportive of sex offenders but I am supportive of gays (**as long as they're not too masculine or feminine acting in a way that misaligns with what their chromosomes say about whether they are capable of using a unisex toilet cubicle without sexually assulting someone)". It'd be absolutely fucking insane to think that the two are so explicitly linked as the press try to paint trans people and sex offenders as.

You represent such a small amount of the population that the amount of time and energy that has been spent to discredit your existence is absolutely absurd. I can only assure you that I watch with as much amusement as you probably do at commentators and journalists who sweat overexcitedly about your performance in a 50 metre dash or where you'll go to take a dump. I am confident though that the time will come when trans people are as accepted into society as the rest of the queer community. 

In the meantime, go out and enjoy your lives, make memories that don't involve worrying about what other people think or say about you. Or stay in, watch Netflix and browse the Internet. You do you, everyone else's prejudice is for them to deal with. There are some amazing groups and instagram accounts featuring trans joy and shining, hopefully, a bit of optimism on the future.

xoxox

Typical response of this day and age, somebody said something you don’t like so there for you must degrade them and run them down. The problem is that at this current point in time there is such an influx of people saying they are trans or non binary or fluid that it just doesn’t add up.

I'll say it again. I'm not debating with transphobes.

And for clarity (and something that I should never have to say in this day and age) I am supportive of trans rights, not sex offenders rights. Just as I am supportive of gay rights and not pedophiles rights. (If that link makes you uncomfortable then you're a step closer to getting the point).

Can you show me which part of my comment was transphobic ?

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Again typical of this day and age, I’m not debating because wahhh they said something I don’t like.

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Out of curiosity have you stood in Christopher st in nyc and protested for trans rights with government officials and celebrities such as Andy cohen and nick jonans in attendance, or do you just sit behind a keyboard ?

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Anybody can say they are anything these days and folk have to accept it otherwise they are labels phobic, so anybody can say they are trans and walk into a female restroom or changing room, that’s the problem. Logic has now gone out the window with everything.

Not wahh just no point spending my life arguing the toss on the Internet.
I support trans people that is where my discussion ends. I shouldn't have to say what I don't support and re-enforce links between two groups that shouldn't be conflated.

(15-02-2023, 01:47 AM)MintyRox Wrote: [ -> ]an obsessive focus on a single Trans woman in the Scottish penal system who committed sexual assault before transitioning

I believe that there is more than one.

I came across the following earlier:

Quote:Scottish prison authorities have been criticised for endangering vulnerable women after it emerged that four of the five transgender inmates held in the female prison estate are murderers.

The revelation is the latest twist in the controversy surrounding Scotland’s Gender Recognition Reform Bill, which allows people as young as 16 to “self-identify” without medical oversight, and the subsequent outcry over the proposed admission of Isla Bryson, 31, a rapist formerly known as Adam Graham, to Cornton Vale women’s prison.

...

The presence of male-born killers in women’s jails, including Cornton Vale, is said to contradict the Scottish Prison Service’s “trauma-informed” strategy, which is designed to “ensure that living arrangements for women help to reduce fear and anxiety”. For Women Scotland, a campaign group opposed to the reforms that allow individuals to change their recorded sex by self-declaration, said the policy causes “trauma for some of the most vulnerable women by locking them up with incredibly dangerous, unpredictable men”.

It added: “Prison should be about rehabilitation, not mental torture, yet, as witnesses have attested, that is what this shockingly cruel policy amounted to. Everyone responsible should be ashamed and many should be investigated.”

...

• Sophie Eastwood, formerly Daniel Eastwood, then 19, was convicted of murder after strangling Paul Algie at a young offenders’ institution in Dumfries in 2004. That sentence was increased for an attack on a prison guard, before Eastwood reportedly self-identified as a woman in 2018. Eastwood is now said to identify as an infant and wants all meals “blended like baby food”

...

Kate Coleman, of Keep PrisonsSingle Sex, said: “These are violent male offenders, all four of whom have caused significant problems in the female estate . . . including sexual exhibitionism (Stewart and Eastwood), harassment and stalking (Eastwood), sexual threats and inappropriate sexual relationships (Green) and violent assault (Young).”

Four of five trans inmates in women’s prisons are murderers


This isn't a new problem:

Quote:A “predatory and controlling” rapist has been jailed for life after she attacked vulnerable women in female prisons.

Karen White, 52, who was described as being a danger to women and children, admitted sexually assaulting women in a female prison and raping another two women outside jail.

White was transferred to New Hall prison in Wakefield, West Yorkshire, on remand last September after being arrested on suspicion of repeatedly stabbing a neighbour. The attacks on fellow prisoners took place between September and October.

The 52-year-old, who is currently transitioning, was sentenced yesterday for two counts of rape, two sexual assaults and one offence of wounding.

White has previous convictions for indecent assault, indecent exposure and gross indecency involving children, animal cruelty and dishonesty.

The Ministry of Justice has apologised for moving her to the women’s prison, saying that her previous offending history had not been taken into account.

Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life

(15-02-2023, 01:47 AM)MintyRox Wrote: [ -> ]Trans women are women

That's a simple thing to say, but it seems to me that it fails to address some very real and very difficult problems.

(15-02-2023, 01:47 AM)MintyRox Wrote: [ -> ]they deserve our (and everyone's) love, respect and support!

Katie Dolatowski sexually assaulted a ten-year-old girl in supermarket toilets in Kirkcaldy. You may feel inclined to offer her "love, respect and support". I don't.

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(15-02-2023, 07:59 PM)cochineal Wrote: [ -> ]I'll say it again. I'm not debating with transphobes.

Ah, the "this is not a debate" gambit. Fair enough. You're wrong. And that's the end of it!

Those on the right of political argument have always needed a demon to rant against.

For many years it was the idea of a gay man preying on children, when statistics show more straight men were predators of children, but we won't go there as it doesn't fit the Right's agenda of scare tactics.

Now that being gay is more in the public's eye, the argument of them all preying on young children is losing it's shock. So the Right have moved on to the same argument, only changed the aggressor. Now it's a transwoman (pre-op) sharing a bathroom with a regular woman.

They have to be stopped because to be a transwoman using a woman's bathroom has to mean you're a sex predator looking to rape any woman you come across. (In case you missed it, I was being sarcastic.)

In a woman's bathroom can only use cubicles, so I don't get the fear some women claim to have over this issue. If someone is going to rape you, they will do it no matter where you are. And if you are afraid of this possibility, go with a friend. Which was very common before the trans issue came to the fore.

As a gay man, it wouldn't bother me for a woman (be they cis or trans) using the men's bathroom.

Maybe I'm of the wrong age to get where most of this fear is coming from.

(15-02-2023, 06:43 PM)MintyRox Wrote: [ -> ]I agree it's important not to dissolve or dilute the rights and safety of another group in order to attain equality, but I thoroughly disagree that trans rights are in any way compromising the rights of cisgendered women.

I can also accept that in certain circumstances it may be unfair to expect cis women to accept trans women sharing particular spaces. The vast majority of trans people would no doubt also agree.

I don't think that anyone is going to disagree.

(15-02-2023, 06:43 PM)MintyRox Wrote: [ -> ]The wider issue is that this one aspect of the debate is being used to derail the entire trans rights discussion

The trouble seems to me that some "fundamentalists" don't seem to accept that there are these difficult issues where balancing the interests of cis women and trans women isn't easy. Just repeating "trans women are women" or "trans rights are human rights" is simply to deny that there might be an issue.

I haven't been following the debate in Scotland that closely, so I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that when people tried to submit an amendment that would have offered cis women some protection, they were attacked.And so Nicola Sturgeon has ended up in the kind of mess where she says things like "This individual claims to be a woman. What I said is that I don’t have information about whether those claims have validity or not."

(15-02-2023, 08:24 PM)pinkpunk Wrote: [ -> ]

(15-02-2023, 01:47 AM)MintyRox Wrote: [ -> ]they deserve our (and everyone's) love, respect and support!

Katie Dolatowski sexually assaulted a ten-year-old girl in supermarket toilets in Kirkcaldy. You may feel inclined to offer her "love, respect and support". I don't.

I don't believe I have mentioned anywhere about offering love, respect and support for child abusers or sexual predators, and that you are inclined to infer such a thing because I stated that I stand in solidarity with the Trans community as a whole says more about you than it does about me.

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(15-02-2023, 08:42 PM)pinkpunk Wrote: [ -> ]

(15-02-2023, 06:43 PM)MintyRox Wrote: [ -> ]The wider issue is that this one aspect of the debate is being used to derail the entire trans rights discussion

The trouble seems to me that some "fundamentalists" don't seem to accept that there are these difficult issues where balancing the interests of cis women and trans women isn't easy. Just repeating "trans women are women" or "trans rights are human rights" is simply to deny that there might be an issue.

So you're now claiming supporters of Trans rights are fundamentalists? I appreciate you providing your opinioin, but I don't see much point in arguing with you when you are being so obtuse.

(15-02-2023, 08:27 PM)edu29d Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe I'm of the wrong age to get where most of this fear is coming from.

Age is irrelevant, you (and I) are the wrong gender. That's the whole point, it isn't for any man to dictate when a woman should feel comfortable or not.

And this is pretty much why I won't debate it.
No one here is in any position to make actual changes that will benefit anyone they're arguing for. Transphobic sources such as The Times get dragged out and the net amount of transphobia which conflates trans people with liars, murderers, sex offenders and rapists online increases.
Trans people you have my support and at the minute that is the best I can do.

(15-02-2023, 09:14 PM)cochineal Wrote: [ -> ]And this is pretty much why I won't debate it.
No one here is in any position to make actual changes that will benefit anyone they're arguing for. Transphobic sources such as The Times get dragged out and the net amount of transphobia which conflates trans people with liars, murderers, sex offenders and rapists online increases.
Trans people you have my support and at the minute that is the best I can do.

You keep replying there for you are debating it.

(15-02-2023, 07:46 PM)RyCamp88 Wrote: [ -> ]Typical response of this day and age, somebody said something you don’t like so there for you must degrade them and run them down. The problem is that at this current point in time there is such an influx of people saying they are trans or non binary or fluid that it just doesn’t add up.

(15-02-2023, 09:57 PM)RyCamp88 Wrote: [ -> ]

(15-02-2023, 09:14 PM)cochineal Wrote: [ -> ]And this is pretty much why I won't debate it.
No one here is in any position to make actual changes that will benefit anyone they're arguing for. Transphobic sources such as The Times get dragged out and the net amount of transphobia which conflates trans people with liars, murderers, sex offenders and rapists online increases.
Trans people you have my support and at the minute that is the best I can do.

You keep replying there for you are debating it.

No one has degraded you, grow up RyCamp.  You can come across like a teen sometimes, lacking the emotional maturity and dexterity to understand the difference between debating versus offering up one's opinion whilst refusing to get into pointless circular arguments with people who will never agree.

And there is nothing odd about there being a "greater influx" of trans and non-binary people today than a few years ago.  That's how it works, more visibility and acceptance leads to more people feeling empowered and confident to be open and true, leads to more openly out trans and NB people.

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(15-02-2023, 09:08 PM)Bangle1 Wrote: [ -> ]

(15-02-2023, 08:27 PM)edu29d Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe I'm of the wrong age to get where most of this fear is coming from.

Age is irrelevant, you (and I) are the wrong gender. That's the whole point, it isn't for any man to dictate when a woman should feel comfortable or not.

Except when that woman is a trans woman, then it's fair game?

Again, you are missing the point and boiling the entire debate down to a single issue surrounding trans women, cis women and safety.  There are trans men as well and numerous other issues within this rights movement which have no bearing on any of that, but it's easier to boil something down to a sound bite then it's simpler to argue against it.